'94 Cherokee won't crank but battery tests fine.

[JamesTheScot]

Last night I went out to leave the house and it wouldn't start. All lights came on per normal but when the key is turned, nothing as far as the starter goes. It had started earlier that day on multiple occasions.

I had the battery tested (2 years old) and Autozone said it was still tip top. The overhead dome light does NOT dim when I turn the key but the radio/clock (stock) display does cut out until I return key to running position.

I have also tried starting in neutral (automatic), jiggling the shifter when in "park" and moving the shifter back and forth through all positions between start attempts to see if the NSS was the problem. But still nothing.

I think I can hear the injectors priming when I turn to on - there's a slight, short whining noise right in front of me on the other side of the firewall.

Possibly unrelated, but I have had problems from time to time with it cranking but not firing when I cut off the vehicle and try to restart a few minutes later. I'd have to pump the gas to get it to fire up or wait a bit. Not sure if it's a fuel or oil fouling issue but I think that's unrelated to this no-crank issue.

Also, the ignition cylinder will turn regardless of the key's orientation. The steering column still locks and unlocks as it should, but I don't have to flip the key after unlocking the door as I used to. And that's new.

Also, last oil change resulted in a broken oil sending unit which I had to replace. The engine leaked a lot of oil out into the compartment before I could find a replacement and get it installed. And the starter is right under it, right?

Also, every once in awhile (once a month or so), the negative ground will short when I turn the key and everything goes dead. But jiggling the negative terminal cable always restores power and it starts.

So, I'm leaning towards dirty or dead starter, a bad switch in the steering column or some kind of short or connection issue between the battery and the starter.

This happened two weeks ago under similar cold/wet conditions but then it started all of a sudden after I messed with the shifter and gave me no issues for past two weeks. But this time it's no go after 24 hours and multiple jiggles. So I think it starting after the shifter jiggle two weeks ago was just a coincidence.

Any shortcuts or tests that would quickly narrow my suspects?

 

[hick92]

Clean you nss

 

[IrishMike]

Turn your key to on position. Wait a minute or two. If you hear a click and it starts it is the computer. I had a similar problem on my 95 wrangler and replaced computer . All worked then. My jeep was a 4 cylinder. Hope it helps.
Mike

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Last night I went out to leave the house and it wouldn't start. All lights came on per normal but when the key is turned, nothing as far as the starter goes. It had started earlier that day on multiple occasions.

I had the battery tested (2 years old) and Autozone said it was still tip top. The overhead dome light does NOT dim when I turn the key but the radio/clock (stock) display does cut out until I return key to running position.

I have also tried starting in neutral (automatic), jiggling the shifter when in "park" and moving the shifter back and forth through all positions between start attempts to see if the NSS was the problem. But still nothing.

I think I can hear the injectors priming when I turn to on - there's a slight, short whining noise right in front of me on the other side of the firewall.

Possibly unrelated, but I have had problems from time to time with it cranking but not firing when I cut off the vehicle and try to restart a few minutes later. I'd have to pump the gas to get it to fire up or wait a bit. Not sure if it's a fuel or oil fouling issue but I think that's unrelated to this no-crank issue.

Also, the ignition cylinder will turn regardless of the key's orientation. The steering column still locks and unlocks as it should, but I don't have to flip the key after unlocking the door as I used to. And that's new.

Also, last oil change resulted in a broken oil sending unit which I had to replace. The engine leaked a lot of oil out into the compartment before I could find a replacement and get it installed. And the starter is right under it, right?

Also, every once in awhile (once a month or so), the negative ground will short when I turn the key and everything goes dead. But jiggling the negative terminal cable always restores power and it starts.

So, I'm leaning towards dirty or dead starter, a bad switch in the steering column or some kind of short or connection issue between the battery and the starter.

This happened two weeks ago under similar cold/wet conditions but then it started all of a sudden after I messed with the shifter and gave me no issues for past two weeks. But this time it's no go after 24 hours and multiple jiggles. So I think it starting after the shifter jiggle two weeks ago was just a coincidence.

Any shortcuts or tests that would quickly narrow my suspects?

buddy , I hate to tell you this but yes , as you surmised , the starter is probably toast. I have had a problem with a minor oil leak from the sending unit just barely wetting the starter but what didn't help was the heater control valve , right above it , dripped on the starter and that was what probably finished it off. Oil and coolant will cook your starter . Have it tested to be sure but I'm certain you'll be swapping a starter in the morning. Sorry about that , I know you had better plans that that . If you want to be sure the starter circuit is working right , attach a voltmeter on to the solenoid wire and other lead to ground and you should get a reading when key is in crank position . Once you know the starter circuit is working right , you'll just need to swap starter.

P.S. - it may be time for positive and negative cables if you don't think your carrying good current and the connections are bad .

 

[JamesTheScot]

Wow, I checked the date on my original post and it's like deja vu all over again.

UPDATE: So I took the starter off, cleaned it up and had it tested. It tested fine. So I reconnected it and tried to start it. No start same as before. So I pushed it out of the garage so my wife could park her car inside over the winter and kinda forgot about it.

So after letting the Cherokee sit for a couple of months, on a whim, I tried to start it up this past March and lo and behold it cranked right up. I had been driving my other car and just hadn't got around to tinkering with the Cherokee in the cold over the winter.

So it has run fine all spring and summer and fall. Started up fine each time.

So then, it starts getting cold again and I notice that it starts getting herder to start. The starter will crank, but kind of begrudgingly. Almost as if it isn't getting enough power and the starter can barely turn it over. It will turn once or twice but then stop. But if I cut the key off and then retry again after a few seconds, it would act like it has more power the second time and would crank the engine and start. So I tested the battery and the battery is saying full charge.

So then the Thursday before Thanksgiving I drive it to my kid's play and it won't start at all after the play. It did the same struggle and then start when I left the house, but nothing after the play is over (about 2 hours later). So I try to jump it from the wife's vehicle and still nothing.

So I have it towed home, I've removed, cleaned and had the starter tested again. It still tests fine. The battery has tested fine, again. I cleaned up the battery terminals and the connectors at the starter. I've reattached the starter and it still won't start. I hear the fuel pumps prime when I turn the key to on. The lights come on fine. But when I turn the key to "start", there's nothing. The dome light does NOT dim. But the radio/clock DOES cut out when I turn the key to start. I've also tried jiggling the gearshift and trying to start in neutral but still nothing.

I did notice a small leak of coolant from some junction which is located on the passenger side of the engine which hangs almost directly over the starter and solenoid. And the starter and solenoid were both pretty grimed up when I took them off for cleaning and testing. But they are near spotless now and again, they tested OK at the parts store.

So I am at a loss. Engine is not seized up. The battery tests fine. The starter tests fine. Lights do not dim. I've cleaned the connectors at the starter and the battery. I've switched out the relays in the fuse box as well. I've tried starting in park and neutral.

This is now the third time this has happened and both times before, after the Jeep sat for a while (a couple of weeks and then a couple of months) it started right up like nothing had ever happened.

I have the luxury of another car, but this is just crazy and needs to get sorted out.

Any ideas?

Also, if it matters, this a '94 Cherokee Country. So it's a 2wd with the 4.0L I6.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Rainy day , rainy nite here in New York , all jeep work ceased until tomorrow .
Wow , it's been a while , hasn't it ! To start with , I don't take stock in the parts stores battery , alternator and starter bench tests since they are not under load , especially batteries and starters . Alternators are just a bit more predictable . The first time this happened to me was on a friends car . I tested the starting circuit and it read good , ignition switch fine. I jumped,the starter off the engine wedged against the front tire with jumper cables and it spun fine . Put it back in and was ver low on torque . Bad brushes or the armature was on its way out . Uncommon for armatures unless heat from exhaust or excessive cranking gets to it. Swapped out the starter and all was well . Now in my case with my '92 , the heater control valve directly above it like yours was dripping coolant onto the starter. Watch those parts store parts . It was from autozone . Tightened a screw to seat a shaft seal and it Swapped out the oil pressure sending unit and has been good since . Swapped in a replacement starter and still good today. This all happened in the aftermath of hurricane sandy. Was lucky to find a parts store actually open. Deep.water crossings are not the only thing that kills our starters , oil and coolant will finish it off too. I'm afraid you'll have to swap out that starter but take care to inspect the oil,pressure sending unit and the heater control valve for leaks . Let us know how it went . Thanks for your post . Best of luck , Greg

 

[drewbuddy]

I would check to see what kind of voltage was present at the starer, make sure all contacts are clean and check the grounds, clean, secure. Possible a break somewhere Splice/ contact in the ignition/starter circuit.Check your relays. And if I had another starter I would try that too. Fix you battery arcing issue, don't wan to burn something out. If it was ecu it would draw a code. some things that came to mind

 

[JamesTheScot]

Greg and Drew, thanks for the replies.

A few questions:

1) Would the coolant/oil leak cause the starter to not work for a month or two and then work for basically 9 months before crapping out again? That just seems odd. Is it a drying out process? And does the timing (calendar, not engine) mean anything. All three times it has crapped out about this time of year. Is it weather related? Related to using the heater, maybe? Or, since I go deer hunting this time of year, am I doing something to it driving through cow pastures and splashing through mud puddles on the farm I hunt?

2) As far as checking for voltage at he starter, now that I have it cleaned and re-installed, do I just use a multimeter and check for volts? And where do I put the probes? I assume the positive probe would go to the large positive bolt on solenoid, but what about the negative probe? There is the other large bolt that connects the solenoid to the starter, but here is the small bolt that connects to the harness alongside the large positive bolt.

3) What's the best way to check the battery and starter for performance under load? I do have a decent multimeter, but my understanding of circuits is very rudimentary.

Thanks in advance!

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Why our starter motors fail is sometimes unique in our cases but always related as it is anything that can infiltrate the starter motor and even the solenoid as well . Dirt causes corrosion to windings but needs the help of water ( or oil or coolant ) to do the deed. We are supposed to be good little car owners and clean all engine surfaces of grime and repair all leaks which contribute to these calamities but that's for another day , like next spring if need be. It's hunting season !
I got ragged on opening week once for pulling out a driveshaft on a friends Suzuki samari when I should have been in the woods . I performed his tune up and test drove it . Spun out on some ice and stripped out the rear driveshaft slip yoke . Drove it back downstate in front axle high range . Hey , if we can fix a Japanese 4wheeler , we can certainly fix American . Back to the situation at hand. First , please ensure that the heater control valve is fixed or replaced so that no further leaks from it or the hose connections will kill another starter . These valves are of cheap plastic , be advised to handle with care. I hate breaking them . Have a new one on hand . With that fixed , you can certainly check voltage draw from the battery to the large starter post where the positive cable attaches . May as well do a quick parasitic ( hope I spelled that right ) drop or drain test . Set volt meter on a volt scale just above 12 volts , whatever is next up. Read battery voltage standing ( engine off ) your meter positive to battery positive and meter negative to battery negative. Record that reading. Now , with positive meter probe on battery positive post , follow with the negative probe down the positive cable to the big starter lug. So that's positive post to cable clamp , clamp to opposite cable connector down at starter , that connector to starter post lug. If all connections are clean , that the voltage drop should be less than a volt or no more than. If more , clen connections better and consider swapping positive and negative battery cables. We can't see the corrosion inside of cable insulation , but if you cut it open , you may be surprised sometimes. You can repeat this to check negative but you will have to keep meter positive probe on battery positive post and follow meter negative down battery negative cable to ground stud. Good time to clean grounds now , especially PCM and oxygen sensor grounds as they are usually on that ground stud for good ground . The vehicles continuos ground system is another good cable to clean, but let's get the starter issue done . BTW , I don't mean to be persistent , but it is my firm belief that the starter was cooked for the last time and is now ripe for replacement . I'm so done with parts store bench tests , I try to do my own testing as accurately as possible at home. I will respect your decision ( good call) to test system first . We should always gather evidence and not just parts swap. Just ask Wayne at realfixesrealfast.com , he lives by that. It's always good to refresh from literature or research where ever you'll find it . My good and bad curbside experiences have taught me well . Sent me to the emergency room for stitches a few times too! The right way to check crank draw is at the end of positive cable and starter stud with a shunt installed but for now we'll just get by with voltmeter leads , one on cable and the other on the starter lug. Crank and record reading. I believe it supposed to be within two volts of battery voltage . Battery cranking amps effect this but starter draw mainly does. You don't want to see more than two volts or so. But first we need a good starter to measure starter draw. Starting to think pep boys is better to deal with but that is up for discussion . Not going there now. Got a jeep to fix. Speaking of , the moderate is saying to me " it stopped raining , don't you have a jeep to work on ?" Sorry , but I kill them with long posts. Hate to make them work but if it serves the forum better , it's all good. Hope this helps and gets you success or at least makes a good lullabye. Lol . Let us know how you fair . Please post your findings and wishing for your success . Best of luck , Greg
P.S.- the small post , thinner gauge wire is the trigger wire ( solenoid connection) . It is live ONLY when cranking starter with ignition key. When replacing starter , take great care NOT to over torque solenoid connection and starter post as well. It's only bakerlite , use restraint. Save your muscle for braking concrete. Lol. Use a back up wrench on the nut behind the cable(s) if need be. Hope this helps. Greg

 

[drewbuddy]

ya what greg92 said. For your question 1) It is possible because of moisture, bad ground, loose connection, bombin through a farm field could cause an issue if something is jarred loose, intermittent contact. But you need to start narrowing in on your search. As stated previously, What kind of voltage at the starter, are your grounds good? is your relay good? are your contacts clean? I would start with voltage at starter, then you can eliminate, or not, if your issue is before your starter(in your ignition system or not (you mentioned issues with your cylinder) How you're explaining when issue happens being intermittent like that, if voltage consistently checks out at the starter, I would think I have something loose, getting jarred, bad contact ect. I would have a good listen on what the starter is doing too, if it's engaging or whining or clunking or nothing. I wouldn't trust the bench test after all this either.

 

[superj]

Its a Cherokee or a grand Cherokee? If its a grand Cherokee, the ecm are well known to have some poor soldering in them and you have to open it up and reflow the solder joints.

Our 98 grand Cherokee is needing this repair. The test is to push on the side of the ecm where the wires plug i. while another person turns the key. If it starts fine and then dies when you let go, you know its the ecm

 

[JamesTheScot]

Thanks for the replies!

The relays (the larger black squares in the fuse box?) were checked. My Jeep has three of them and I switched them all around in all combinations and still a no-crank.

As for the connections, I thoroughly cleaned the starter connections, the battery posts, and the cable connections at both the starter and battery ends. So I am confident it isn't in those connectors. But corrosion in the cables beneath the insulation is a possibility, which I assume the multimeter tests will help ferret out.

As for those tests, I am having a little trouble unwrapping Greg's list of tests, so I am going to re-read his post.

I had already tested the battery standing (assume that's + meter to + post and - meter to - post) and got 12.53 volts.

Is there any chance this is an ignition switch issue, or is that ruled out by the fact that I can hear the injectors prime when the key is inserted? I am not hearing a click at the starter, but I don't know that I could hear it from inside the cab. May need to enlist the wife's help on that detail. Dome lights do NOT dim when I turn the key but the radio does shut down.

This thought just occurred to me: when it started up this past spring after the lay-off, my radio reception is crap. AM is worthless and FM much degraded. Any chance there's some common electrical cause for the no-crank and the bad radio? Or just coincidence?

I will report back with multimeter findings.

Thanks, guys!

PS -It's a '94 Jeep Cherokee Country.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Thank you for your reply James , sorry this is proving to be tedious so I must condense for your sanity . Your 12.53 volt reading proves a healthy battery , thankfully. With voltmeter set to 15 or 20 volts or so , place one lead on the battery positive and the other to the large starter post . Battery voltage should be read or nearest to . Considerably less would mean the positive cable is corroded . Check the battery negative cable as well to be sure . I'm expecting good readings by what you've posted this far. Now , with one meter lead to a good ground and the other to the solenoid wire , crank the starter to obtain a reading . Should be close to battery voltage . Try this several times for consistantcy . A good reading consistently will prove the ignition switch is working with regards to the starter circuit . This leaves only the starter solenoid and starter . They are a unit and the solenoid can be replaced separately but many times it's worth changing starter as a unit. At this point I would think you'll not want to pull out the starter to change only the solenoid and replace possibly to find yet a no crank condition so starter replacement as a unit is advisable. Let us get the engine cranking and running before we deal with poor radio reception . The fact that the injectors are firing in ignition position is a good thing in terms PCM status we are to believe at this time , we'll deal with that if we must but let's look for a cranking starter .
It is my firmest belief that the starter is the issue whether it be because the solenoid has gone bad or the starter as a whole but don't wish to make you chase your tail any further . Starter replacement may be the best option since electrical parts are not returnable and hate for you to determine the armature of the starter is bad and solenoid swap yielded no joy. Of course ask for the store policy on purchase of the replacement starter and I know you will tell the hopefully knowledgeable counter person the update for their best advice that suits you to obtain your goal .
Hoping for the best and will reply to your NSS thread . BTW , there will be NO CRANK until the NSS is reinstalled and working as you know . Did not read if you've already reinstalled it .
Will post back soonest .

 

[Tison78_CJ5]

If I was a betting man, I would go for bad starter. Too many times this has caused me problems. Starters can have a dead spot in them. When they stop in the perfect place, they don't get the full power to the armature. usually sticky brush.. The only other problem I remember was a bad key switch. When you turn the key to start, it opens the acc. contact " thus the radio goes off" , but doesn't close the contact for the starter.
If you get it to act up. Take the end of a 2x4 board, and smack the starter with it, "the side of it". See if it starts.
For 2 years I carried a board with me.
I hate to see you replace the starter, without a warm fuzzy feeling..
Good luck.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Greg,

Hope I didn't sound ungrateful, your posts aren't tedious at all! I'm just a noob when it comes to this stuff so translating your words into what I am seeing under the hood is taking some translation effort, probably due to me not knowing the proper tech names for what I am seeing and referring to.

I am working through it though! Will have my results back shortly.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Oh not at all James , in fact I hope I'm not being too technical and causing even more confusion.

 

[drewbuddy]

If your hearing nothing on crank from the starter you may have a dead spot as tison78 suggested(hammer or something does work sometimes). Your relays can be tested with a voltmeter. Remove the relay, with the key on(not running)you can check for battery voltage(push in clutch if manual) If voltage present, could be relay or circuit. Not sure where to find proper orientation of testing for proper resistance values for your particular relay,but you can check resistances, will have to search on that.. Voltage test at the starter is a MUST to really narrow down the search as well. Without it you don't even know if your getting power, intermittent or not, to your starter. When this is determined, then we can figure out where to start looking next eg ignition circuit, loose/bad grounds, relay, fuses, solenoid ect. When you voltage test your starter, pay attention to the noises or what it's doing or not doing. And yes you will need a second person to make it easy on yourself

 

[JamesTheScot]

OK, hear are my multimeter results.

All testing done with starter mounted and connected and NSS bypassed using a lead between the C and D pins in the harness connector on the engine side.

1) Battery tested 12.3 volts on both battery posts and at battery cables just past the clamps. Voltage dropped to 12.15 volts when I had the under-hood lamp plugged in, BTW. Is that voltage drop normal or relevant?

2) I attached one end of a jumper cable to the solenoid trigger post. I attached the other end of the jumper to the (+) battery post. Still a no-crank. I believe this is essentially the same test as using a remote starter set-up to bypass the battery cable and get direct current to the solenoid, which should induce crank if the starter is working, correct?

3) I next connected the (+) meter probe to the solenoid trigger wire, not the trigger post. This was actually on the flat metal plate that the solenoid stud passes through. I connected the (-) meter to ground on the vehicle frame. I had my wife turn the key. I received a 10.6 volt reading on the multimeter. This is with the under-hood light on, BTW. So this would indicate that current is actually getting through the battery cable to the solenoid, correct? This should also verify that current is NOT being interrupted by either the NSS (which of course is bypassed anyway, in this scenario) or the ignition switch. So I can eliminate those two as culprits.

4) I next attached the (+) meter probe to the (+) battery post. I touched the (-) meter probe to the constant (+) stud on the solenoid. I had my wife turn the key. I got a 0 volts reading on the meter, which indicates no voltage drop. So this means the starter is receiving enough current.

5) Just by way of double checking, I attached the (-) meter probe to the (-) battery post and alternated the (+) meter probe between both on the trigger stud and wire and the constant (+) stud and wire. With the key off, both the trigger wire and the trigger stud read 0 volts. Both the (+) stud and the (+) wire gave 12.2 volts. So this confirmed for me that the cable from the battery were in fact sending current to the solenoid at the (+) stud. It also confirms that the connection between the wire and the stud is good.

6) I then repeated test 5 except that I had an assistant turn the key to the start position several times. Both the trigger wire and the trigger stud gave 10.9 volts when the key was turned. Both the (+) wire and the (+) stud gave fluctuating readings which dropped as low as 11.5 volts. So this would seem to indicate that, under load, the battery is still sending enough juice to the trigger stud to induce a crank if the solenoid/starter were working properly. It would confirm that the trigger wire is working fine, as is the connection between the wire and stud. It would also confirm that the NSS (bypassed at present) and the ignition switch are NOT interrupting the current to the solenoid, else it wouldn't get its 10.9 volts.

So this means it MUST be a problem within the solenoid/starter, correct? Even though it was somehow testing fine at the parts store. So that means that the starter is failing under load? But I am hearing nothing at all from the starter when the key is turned with me right under it jabbing it with a probe. There's horrible joke potential there, I know.

So how does that happen? How can it test fine on the bench and be as dead as door nail on the other side of the studs when it is actually mounted to the motor? If it fails under load, I would at least expect to hear something try to engage or some mechanical noise from inside the starter housing. But I hear nothing from the starter at all.

And to be clear, the motor is not seized. I was able to turn the crankshaft bolt rather easily with my ratchet and also when tugging on the serpentine belt by hand.

I am OK with replacing the starter. But it does have me scratching my head over why the previous two times this has happened, it tested fine immediately upon removal yet waited some time before it started working again when re-installed only to quit again under the same circumstances one and two years later.

Does that heater control valve only drip when I run the heater inside? And that's why it only happens in the late fall when the weather turns cold? And why it runs fine all spring and summer? Is it possible that coolant in the starter causes the starter to foul, but then operate once the vehicle sits (no drips) and the starter dries out? But if so, how could it test fine on the bench? Wouldn't it still be just as fouled inside from the coolant that has soaked in?

I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

 

[drewbuddy]

New/rebuilt starter needed. A starter will do that, you can get that one perfect dead spot. I would fix whatever leaks dripping on the contacts or motor though, or at least a splash guard. It's never a good thing. In the cold, oil thickens, takes more cranking amp to start the motor and if you starter was weak, could have been the issue

 

[Tison78_CJ5]

If a brush in the starter is tight, it will act as you are describing.
Give the rear side of the starter a swat. near where the brushes are. If it works, you have found the problem.
I like to us wood, because the power of the battery is nearby.
Good luck

PS: I'm not saying this is the fix. Just a way to verify the starter is the problem.
I have spent lots of time on this same problem.

Usually, when you pull the brush assembly off, you find a thick grease like substance, with carbon from the brushes, between the brush, and its slide. When it gets cold it keeps the brush from making a good connection.

If you are a DIY, like me, you can probably fix the starter you have. The brush assy. probably just needs to be cleaned.
I use Q-tips, and Acetone to clean all the grease away. Putting the brush assy. back in is the only hard part.
It is about the same as doing an alternator, or generator.
Be warned it is very dirty, the carbon dust makes quite a mess.