timing problem or miss match

Joshua Faas

New member
OK so here it is. Have a 92 X sport with cracked block but still ran. Pulled a motor from a 99 ish Zj which also still ran. Pulled the intake and exhaust off as well as distributor because that stuff would not match up. So what I have now is a 99 block and head and all internals with 92 distributor, intake and exhaust. All went well till I tried to fire it up....nothing. try as I might. ...no mater how many times I set it to TDC and install the distributor at 5 o'clock I get nothing. 1 tooth forward or back and it sputters but that's it.

So my question is this...is the 99 internals that much different? Is the timing different? Can I even use this motor? Been at this for 2 months and about to set it on fire.....help please!

OK. ..rant finished....Thank you for whatever info you can provide.
 

It seems from your post your using the correct method to install the distributor. I'd like to ask if you've confirmed that the harmonic balancer mark and the number #1 piston TDC agree. Wondering if the rubber ring between the outer and inner harmonic balancer has slipped as harmonic balancers can lose their position if this occurs. Before condemning the distributor as useless in this engine , please confirm the engine is truly at TDC. Whether you use a screwdriver or what have you to confirm piston is at top of travel and on compression stroke confirmed by pressure note the balancer mark . Hopefully it won't be necessary to remove rocker cover to confirm rocker arms both intake / exhaust closed. Also hoping timing chain dosen't have too much slack and causing cam gear to be a tooth off when installing distributor. Wouldn't want you to have to remove timing cover just to see marks. How much balancer rotation are you seeing before rotor moves ? This really sounds like you are with in a tooth or so as you've stated. But the balancer may be off causing you to be so many degrees off . Try to start there since all else has not achieved results . To my knowledge the '92 's distributor dosen't have the alignment mark below the cam sensor / cam sync to help proper install of distributor . The procedure relies on oil pump drive shaft and rotor alignment to install correct. Since nothing has worked this far , balancer needs to be checked for slippage. I could check my '92's distributor for this internal alignment ( a hole in the bottom of distributor and the correct hole through through a plate ) but my distributor only has the sync sensor . No help there. Going to have to confirm balancer position .
 
Yes it is on TV on compression stroke and valves closed. Pulled valve cover to be sure. Compared distributors from the 92 and discarded 99....and it appears the 99 sensor is positioned in a different location than the 99....would it stand to reason that the crank sensor and flywheel would have a different time in as well?
 
Understanding your concern for Ckp signal . Your still using the same flywheel with the same engine which means the windows that the crank sensor reads are still in the same location and the mounting of the Ckp is still mounted in its same location will mean it's getting the same signal and at the same timing . This shouldn't be an issue as long as the Ckp is getting a signal in the first place . Has signal from Ckp been verified ? I realize in the time between the swap and now that much checks and diagnostics must have been performed . As I reread your first post , the engine is just cranking but giving no indication of starting. No dtc's will log since the is no activity for the PCM to record. Ok , is there Ckp signal ? Is there pulse read from injector harness , I.E. Power to injectors AND any ground to any injector ? The CMP is supposed begin this firing order of the injectors once the engine is cranking and signal is read from the Ckp . There shouldn't be an issue with the crank sensor ( providing it is good) since you've got the right flywheel but yes , we may have a timing issue with the CMP as your concerned . Not stating fact but asking if the numbers from each distributor are different as I believe they may be. More important , are they interchangeable which is your question all along . If signals are not read as should be , the timing is out of synchronization. I dosen't sound like its crank related but your original question was can you use the '92 distributor . The only difference I was able to find was the absence of this plate inside the distributor on the '92 versus a plate on a'98 distributor . There is a set up which involves alignment of this plate involving a hole that corresponds to a hole in the distributor while oil pump shaft , distributor bracket and drive gear / rotor alignment with #1 plug wire all comes into play. The '92 distributor dosen't have this plate and hole arrangement and relies on rotor alignment to #1. I must verify , but I believe both distributors have #1 at same location . If so , CMP MUST be looked at to verify IF alignment IS different with #1 in SAME location on cap with rotor and same CMP alignment. I'm sure I confused this but I need to look at this from my end. BTW , from your two distributors , can you actually see a different alignment of the CMP contact in relation to the distributor bracket ? I ask because of aligning the rotor to 5 O'clock may be why . The tone ring is different in these distributors than an HEI distributor for example. This is ONE contact that the tone ring in both year 4.0 distributors that correspond with the CMP . But , as you initially asked in your first post , are they the same ? I will try to find out . But hoping from your two distributors , you may find out before me. Will post back as I can . Also , can you check for Ckp signal and injector power (+) and signal (-) ? This will verify communication with PCM. If alignment in CMP is off , there may not be injector pulse from PCM to ground injectors to fire them. Check spark plugs if any fuel is present at all. He this helps and gives more to go on. With luck , you may only need the correct distributor if this is an issue.
 

T he sensors in the distributor do a pear to be aimed at a different location now that I look at them side buy side. I will do some testing on injectors when I get home and update when I finished.
 
Ok , took a fast look at a '98 4.0 liter I have ( belongs to my brother) . Although the obvious difference difference of the CMP style , the position of my '92 and the '98 in terms of rotor alignment and distributor placement in the block , I see no other difference . Both rotors face 5 O'clock on number #1 so CMP alignment should be the same. I dint see any reason why a '92 distributor couldn't work in your '99 engine. Someone correct me of I'm wrong. I'm thinking that all the usual diagnostic stuff will have to be confirmed such as PCM communication . I didn't confirm #1 TDC but didn't feel the need as all else seems relevant. This may all seem repetitive and elementary , but the fact remains ; this engine hasn't started yet. This will be a case study and any member is welcome to input if any other suggestion(s) are needed to follow. Hope this helps . Please post what has been found in terms of PCM communication with CMP , Ckp and injector pulse.
 
T he sensors in the distributor do a pear to be aimed at a different location now that I look at them side buy side. I will do some testing on injectors when I get home and update when I finished.
Yes , although the CMP in both year distributors are at different angle , I don't think this directly effects spark since the rotor still aligns to #1 at 5 O'clock. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think there shouldn't be a difference . I realize my '92 distributor is the same style as the RENIX engine (obd1 ) and the '99 is a later design and OBD 2 but I still don't see this as relevant. Anyone's input is welcome.
 

Now the sensor in the distributor is for the injector timing only, correct? If it is not functioning will I still get spark provided the Crank sensor is working?
 
ok...so here is what I have so far. if I disconnect the crank or cam sensor it will throw a code for it. if I move the plug wires clockwise one then it spits and sputters...if I move them the other way then then it sparks but just to soon. so why is it if I put it all where it SHOULD go I get nothing. the injectors spray...not sure if its at the right time but there working...so what next...replace plugs and wires and intake gasket I guess. just to make sure its not a leak problem.
 
It's a bit confusing , granted but the crankshaft position identifies crankshaft at #1 position to begin the firing order cycle for ignition and also fuel injection timing by reading the flywheel / crankshaft position and what cylinder is in what position through its firing order sequence. The camshaft position sensor will receive signal in sync with the crank sensor per cylinder in the distributor to each pole much the way contact points do. But as you can see , each sensor must work and in proper time or the engine dosen't run. I know you know that.
I was wondering what happens when you try to stab '99 distributor. My thoughts were if you can use this alignment hole in the plate to align in the distributor body to align rotor position when distributor bracket is aligned with block to install hold down bolt with the oil pump shaft properly aligned . With this done , the oil pump shaft should now be in proper alignment and rotor should now face 5 O'clock and pointing to #1 cylinder post if you want to try the '92 distributor. I did not ask if you attempted this already. It will help when you want to diagnose the CMP . Hope you have reference to CMP and Ckp diagnostic check if these parts are good ?
 

ok...so here is what I have so far. if I disconnect the crank or cam sensor it will throw a code for it. if I move the plug wires clockwise one then it spits and sputters...if I move them the other way then then it sparks but just to soon. so why is it if I put it all where it SHOULD go I get nothing. the injectors spray...not sure if its at the right time but there working...so what next...replace plugs and wires and intake gasket I guess. just to make sure its not a leak problem.
Ok , not so fast . No part swapping until confirmed bad. You don't want to change an intake gasket until the engine is running and if a vacuum leak is found. You don't want to change spark plugs and wires unless they are found to be bad. But it seems you've proven that distributor timing is off. It seems the crank signal is on the PCM is communicating with the sensors and disconnecting one at a time threw a code verifying communication by means of isolation. Since the distributor is not meant to turn for dwell position , it needs to be set in time properly. I do,see your point . By what your saying , it seems your unable to find correct position with the '92 distributor ? Could you tell us what is the reason again exactly that the '99
Distributor cannot be used in the '99 engine ? I'm not getting that part.
 
Ok , one more time for my understanding. The '99 engine currently installed has its correct flywheel with crank sensor properly mounted ( right so far ?) so the crank position for spark and injector timing sequence is correct I'm hoping ? If that's right , then distributor timing needs to be set correctly. I think the question still remains ; can the '92 distributor be used. Although it seems you should be able to install it , I'm thinking its sync signal is off . You mentioned a difference you noticed with both distributors in terms of CMP position. Your attempt to advance or retard spark position shows there seems to be a difference. My question is again , what is the reason the engines original distributor cannot be used ?
 
ok just for clarification. the flywheel im using is from the 92 and so is the sensor....all electronics are as well as intake and header. just the block and head and internals is from the 99....it might be a 98...not sure exactly...was a totaled zj. but it did run before I pulled it. the reason I cant use the newer distributor is the sensor plug is different and uses 4 wires instead of 3. when installed the cms is aimed in a different location as well....like about 3 cm difference. so that's why my first question was is there an internal difference? is there an actual difference in when the 2 engines are designed to fire? for example...if the 92 should fire at lets say 8 degrees before tdc....maybe the 98 is designed to fire later or earlier than that...im not sure...just throwing stuff out there as I don't know where to go from here aside from do a full conversion over to the newer ecm and sensors...but what if that don't fix the problem...ugh. just slap a carb on it and an hei haha
 

I do apologise for the confusion however as I believe from wica that the zj stopped this body style in 98 so it must be a 98
 
Thank you for your clarification . Ok , the engine I'm holding in storage is from a '98 ZJ as well . Interesting enough , the CMP in this distributor is a THREE wire and the part # is 56041034 .
of course it's OBD 2 as is yours . If you can get your hands on a three wire CMP for the part # I posted , hoping this may get you up and running. It's intriguing me why the distributor as it is you cannot be dialed in but if your able to work out a three wire CMP , you may find joy. Really hoping for you as well that this helps . At least you'll be able to install the distributor that the engine ran with. I don't want to entertain the thought of your current OBD 1 PCM not compatible with the different style CMP as I'm not sure if this actually makes a difference. Hate to make you go out and buy one on a guess , especially with the fear of inferior replacement parts we see posts on here in our forum. Don't want to wish it on you now when we're trying to get this jeep out of the driveway and on the road. Be nice if you can score one from a salvage engine that was a known runner. Just a thought , hope this will work for you.
 
Ok , with the distributor clamped down and the cap screws at about 2 O'clock on the forward screw and the rearward screw at about 8 O'clock , the sync sensor is pointing about 3:30 position but definately between 3 & 4 O'clock .
 
Incidentally , I called my brother this morning to ask if he remembered any timing issues when he was working on this engine well before the jeep was trashed. He called me back and said that if you look for top dead center with a probe or screwdriver or something , you will find the #1 piston reaches TDC before the scale reads TDC and dosen't begin to drop until after TDC so this makes setting up the early distributor like the '92 a real pain with no reference mark like the '98 distributor has. That reference mark is worth gold right now ! As far as crank slack in TDC , that's always been a breaker as you know . Just makes you wonder how it was set up when the timing chain was new. That's the real breaker now . Hey , guessing you spun the engine a few times to see if the rotor comes back to same position to confirm chain isn't jumping time ? With this being such a hassle to you , thought I'd ask of this was part of your adventure since the swap. Don't want to,second guess your work , just trying to put myself in your place .
 
Last edited:

I have now. Going to go pick up a timing light just to be sure it's trying to fire some where close to where it should
 
Back
Top