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Thread: seized starter

  1. #1
    weiland7's Avatar
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    seized starter

    i installed new starter, solenoid, starter cable. and ignition switch
    still fried my starter
    enclosed is a pic of how i wired my ignition and a pic of my ignition switch and alternator
    upon some research I've found that i don't need the exciter or grey wire off number "1" terminal on alternator i had this spliced into the battery wire at ignition switch or battery pole on the ignition switch (its also important to know that at one point i had this incorrectly spliced into the ignition wire at ignition switch on the ignition pole) but ill be getting rid of this altogether
    could it be that i have a bad ignition module
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails seized starter-duraspark01.gif   seized starter-0611132017.jpg  

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    greg92jeepxj's Avatar
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    Was looking at last weeks thread , starting to get confused . Correct me if I'm wrong , but it looks like you have a 14 ga. wire to give battery power to ign. switch , a white wire to crank solenoid , and a red 16 ga. I terminal red wire to feed ign. ? If I am looking at the pictures right , I think you got two power sources to your ign. switch ?
    Big ga. Red wire from load post to battery terminal on key , small ga. red from I terminal of solenoid ign. Terminal on key , and white wire to S terminal on solenoid . I cannot find where key is energizing ign. module . The diagram helps , but I cannot see all of the ign. , run and start circuit versus the diagram . I do not see a yellow wire on your alternator . What is the green wire for ? A ground ? There is a green wire in the harness to solinoid . That looks like a GM DELCO alternator , the two top wires should go , one to dash light and one to BAT. Terminal to excite the voltage regulator. Where does the fusible link wire go ? I do not see a problem with the cables . Still confused . Cannot yet determine why starter burning up .
    Last edited by greg92jeepxj; 06-12-2013 at 04:45 AM.
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  3. #3
    69jeepcj's Avatar
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    Re: seized starter

    Dont the starter only get 12volts when key is turned to start position, and when the key is in the run position there should be no volts to starter (only start position)????. If starter gets constant 12volts while in run position, wouldnt that burn it up???? If so, then I would look at your connections at the starter, and ignition switch. If I remember correctly, that s the way it is on my jeep, I get no volts to starter untill I turn the key all the way to start position, then when I let go of key (engine started) there is no volts to starter at the small terminals of solenoid.
    Last edited by 69jeepcj; 06-12-2013 at 05:15 AM.

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    Re: seized starter

    Yes , I agree , the starter should only get 12V when key is in START , that would be the only time the two studs would be connected electrically by the internal coil of the solenoid . That question was raised , but was the test conducted ? It should only be a matter of looking for voltage on the stud going to the starter cable with IGN. on. If voltage is read , and key NOT in START , that should be a defective internal coil in the solenoid ? But I am wondering , coils being magnetic like in a relay , is there a field energizing this coil , even to a minimum of kilovoltage that is causing heat , burning up starter ? Of course we want the wiring verified correct connections , but ultimately we do need to know is voltage present at stud where cable goes to starter when key is NOT held in start ? Yes , I agree . If 69jeepcj feels wiring is correct and agrees with his jeep , since wiring from one model year to another due to different ign. modules , then we must be certain voltage is only present where it needs to be and when . My only question now is has any wiring been changed from original , not just replaced , but has a change in ign. systems been made warranting rewiring harness for that purpose ? Is ign. , distributor , alternator , etc. stock? I am still worried however if TWO LIVE wires are connected to solenoid top posts inputting to internal coil causing coil to remain energized AFTER key is released from START ? Is coil defective ? Are connections wrong ? We cannot leave no stone unturned . All will have to be checked since this problem still exists after parts replace .
    been forgetting to ask , what year , make , model , engine is your jeep ? I don't remember it being posted , sorry.
    Last edited by greg92jeepxj; 06-12-2013 at 09:35 AM.

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    Re: seized starter

    this is easy for someone with knowledge of auto electrical
    but i am clueless in this area
    i took a pick of an illustration of my complete wiring job
    the green on the alt is ground
    also i will start putting voltmeter on things
    just thought there might be a seasoned wiring person that could look at my illustration to see if i wrong because all this info I've just got off internet
    its a 1980 cj5 304
    i gutted wire harness and tried to build back from scratch
    don't think ignition components are number matching, looks like some engine mods have been made, bought as is
    the whole project is under 73 cj build (i.e. 73 because i bought 2 jeeps one as a doner and thought i was going to keep the 73 body but too much rust)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails seized starter-0612131241.jpg   seized starter-0612131232.jpg  


  6. #6
    greg92jeepxj's Avatar
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    Re: seized starter

    Sorry for so much trouble , but respect you are trying and that is very admirable. Remember , we all started here , where you are now . I regret I must return to work , but I want very much to see this diagram as we must beat this problem . Just want to say , I have never seen a ground wire such as the green wire on your alternator , usually the mounting bracket grounds the case or there are negative connections on field wiring such as the '91 and up Cherokees. If that green wire is grounding to the solenoid bracket , it is possible it may be back feeding it. If it is , you may be getting current through your solenoid and to the starter when the alternator is spinning . Try finding another place to ground the green , away from the solenoid altogether.
    Sometimes , it is just that easy . Sometimes , we create our own grief through error , don't feel bad , I'm 50 , been working on cars since 13 and don't think I am impervious to errors .
    the trick is to learn from it and better yet , learn before it. I'm still learning. Not ashamed to admit it. Will be in touch , anxious to get it working right to , been on this thread constantly.
    as far as I am concerned brother , you got a CJ5 and I don't , you are the man !
    Last edited by greg92jeepxj; 06-12-2013 at 12:31 PM.

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    Re: seized starter

    Looking at the last pic you posted. It really looks correct to me, "except" you have the aux from the ignition switch going to your soleniod with a 30 amp fuse. The AUX is for things like your radio, cig lighter and things like that, it doesnt go to the soleniod, that may be your second 12 volt source to the starter as it supplys constant 12 volt source to your accessories, we dont want that going to starter. As greg mentioned, that green ground wire at the alt is puzzleing to me as well. I cant compare your wireing to mine as the PO rewired the whole jeep and I think he just used what ever color wire he had laying around, There is red for grounds and all sorts of stuff, I would have to trace each one to see where it go,s and I have points, (no module which has more wiring).

  8. #8
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    Re: seized starter

    yeah, I'm pulling the green ground alt wire
    and ill pull the batt/sol 30 amp circuit
    have yet to hit it with the volt meter
    will follow up

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    Re: seized starter

    ok pulled the red 30amp circuit out now i have nothing
    my question is where does the ignition switch get its power source to direct to either the
    ignition or the starter
    should i pull 12v's from the positive pole on the battery(not the solenoid) and connect to the ignition pole on the ignition switch (along with the ignition circuit already on that pole) . would that not power up the ignition circuit when the key is turned on to the ignition mode then power the start pole when i roll the key on to the spring loaded start position
    Last edited by weiland7; 06-13-2013 at 08:35 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: seized starter

    Following your progress and I see that there are some circuits missing ? I am trying to get a wiring diagram from the autozone website but my computer is just hassling me today . Verizon fios , two outdated desktops , oh joy. I want to find which way the current is supposed to run on the CJ . I am thinking that like 69jeepcj said , an AUX wire should not be coming from the solenoid to the ignition switch . I believe it should run to a fuse panel and then to the ign. switch . I need to see the correct wiring schematics for the '80 CJ to confirm , but most of all , we need to know how this jeep is supposed to be wired as you mentioned it needs to be rewired.
    Its starting to sound like to me that too much current was flowing from the battery + via the solenoid connection , through the ign. Switch , and back to solenoid ign. Terminal , which I believe was over feeding the starter through the S terminal . Perhaps I am not explaining it right , but my main objective is to figure out the jeeps correct distribution of power.
    I see what your saying that the jeeps wiring harness is rewired , but with shortcuts.
    I would say that the original wiring must have been compromised at some point and circuits were hard wired to just get it running , but not the right way. I have got to get that diagram to try to sort out in my mind how your jeep is actually wired versus how it should be wired .
    that fused connection to the key switch was literally providing power to ign. system but improperly and obviously delivering too much amperage, causing the starter overheats.
    69jeepcj is on the right track , and we still got to find the right route for your ign. Circuit.
    yes, this is certainly fun (not) , but when it is wired and working correctly , you will have the classroom training of a WYOTECH grad. without the tuition. I got my mission, hope to get some kind of decent schematics to help us . Wishing me luck as I am wishing you the same.
    At the minimum , your finding out what makes your jeep tick , little by little. Making us proud !
    Last edited by greg92jeepxj; 06-14-2013 at 09:58 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: seized starter

    hey got your message
    check this out
    i found a wiring diagram with current flow and its quite different from the one I've been using
    what do you think
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails seized starter-durasparkfinal.jpg  

  12. #12
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    Re: seized starter

    Sorry to miss your post , I am trying to keep up with your progress so that every day is a day of progress toward completion . It literally gets confusing when we read different color codes on the dura spark ignition module . I am hoping to see the mailman deliver my original reprint of the 1980 AMC jeep shop manual soonest as I need to verify if that module on your jeep is correct . Although that would not cause the starter to burn out as they have been , I want to be certain that the module absolutely matches the system your jeep requires. I have never seen these modules drastically different , not to say you can use any one on any engine , computer controlled engines may have a difference , but lets not throw that in the works as that is not the case here. I just insist on being able to say what is right and what isn't since we are not willing to just burn up more starters and damage wiring harness through trial and error.
    Agreed , it should not be this tough , but it seems we have a unique problem , a modification may be at fault. I say this because there is a dash mounted ign. switch when there is supposed to be a column mounted switch . Not certain that plays a part , I don't think there is any different resistance value to contend with there, but we cannot leave no stone unturned . I've never seen starters burn up like this . Only once did I see a defective solenoid crank a starter when the B+ connection made. All connections were verified too. A new solenoid to replace the "new" solenoid fixed it. While this is not happening to your jeep , something is causing starters to overheat.
    If no voltage is read with ign. on at the cable from solenoid stud to starter , key not in crank and ign. on , then Lets be sure the rest of the jeeps wiring harness is correct to rule out incorrect current route. The moment I get that manual , since I cannot trust anything else I get my hands on , I will study from column to coil to starter what is supposed to be versus what we got .
    i intend to copy and send you personally all pages concerning your jeep's under hood and dash wiring to help,you get it right . Every electronic ign. I see , seems to be similar , but I want the wiring diagram a 1980 CJ 304 CID is supposed to have . We are correcting what someone did prior to,your purchase of your jeep are are faced with putting it back together. I could say why not just get a harness from Painless wiring , but I would not tell someone to spend that kind of money when it may not be necessary . I'm sure that with parts from the other jeep , there is no reason why a proper harness cannot be made. Even if wires must be individually put together as you have been doing , the end goal is to have a complete and correct harness. Only the book will tell us that . That being done , we can isolate errors more efficiently , if the problem does not magically fix itself. Stranger things do happen. I rewired a friends '92 olds delta 88 under the hood using spare harness for a donor car ( a '92) and we finally got it started after months of try try again , research and pulling our hair out . It's got to be right , or it won't go. We have one thing on our side , you don't have to deal with a PCM , just a solid state ignition system.
    Your post shows a diagram that is basically similar , but I only got that car started by following the book . WE CHECKED EVERYTHING that was of relevance and concern. No wonder no station or diagnostic wanted the job . With the book , we must get this beat. If asked why I am so adamant regarding this jeep , it is likely I may have to deal with this someday if I land a CJ5 of my own. What greater way to get a start than here ? If I found one not running for a good price , I will be in the same place as you . That is why the determination. This is not my first no start , I have learned that not all are basic , but unique. We will prevail . Greg92jeepxj
    Last edited by greg92jeepxj; 06-16-2013 at 01:35 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: seized starter

    I will respect your first theory , could you have a bad ignition module , lets hold that thought .
    The ign. module does fire the starter and the ign. while in START position . That is something to consider . Once wiring is complete and correct , we will have a better idea of what is potentially wrong. I want to personally commend you on your tenacity to not give in and throw in the towel , I did not give in and finally prevailed and got that car running. I know you will to .

  14. #14
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    Found these diagrams , see if they compare to your existing wiring harness until I get the manual.

    seized starter-image-4129972510.jpg



    seized starter-image-4078387171.jpg



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    Last edited by greg92jeepxj; 06-16-2013 at 09:09 AM.
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    Re: seized starter

    dude i really appreciate your interest
    just a update
    I've tried all the illustrations and all I'm getting is a solenoid click on the ignition mode of the ignition cycle and nothing on the start portion of the ignition cycle
    so i guess well wait on some current flow specs
    also i did buy a new ignition module
    thanks man!

  16. #16
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    Re: seized starter

    hang on
    this illustration seems to be working
    no volts to the starter
    this one also had no wiring to the "i" pole on the solenoid
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails seized starter-durasparkfinal.jpg  

  17. #17
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    Re: seized starter

    Your most welcome , and we would really like to see you get your jeep running too . Nothing more worse than looking at your jeep , probably the one you always wanted and you can't even drive it. Trying to remember , but , I think you put a starter in after the first one burned up ? Now I don't remember if that starter is ok , or not ? If it is , an old trick we used to do when a solenoid went bad , connect the two large studs , which bypasses the internal coil and cranks the starter . It is best to use a remote starter switch for safety and good connection . If you don't have one you can use a jumper wire , but this is battery voltage so you want good gauge wire . A jumper cable will work. To prevent electrical damage to ignition switch and ignition module , disconnect both wires from the small terminals when doing this . Connect one alligator clamp to the battery side stud firmly and touch the opposite side momentarily. You just want to see the starter spin to confirm the starter is good. Be careful , you will see sparks. This is why I really suggest you have a remote starter switch . I would not blame you if you do not feel comfortable doing this . The only safe way is the remote switch . They are not expensive , but if you can borrow one or maybe autozone can rent one ? I would not want you to jeopardize any more electrical than already has . But we do need to know is the starter working. If it is we have something to work with . I really hope it is. It is best to test in the vehicle as I keep hearing parts store bench tests unreliable. Starter should be checked under load . Forgot to ask , but did you try to connect a voltmeter set to read battery voltage on the solenoid (S) stud and the starter stud cable ? You can just clip the small alligator clips of the meter to the terminals and have someone crank starter while you read the meter. You should read 12 volts as key is in START position. If not , solenoid dead.
    please be careful in all electrical tests as we do not want further damage , especially that you got a replacement ignition module. Also , with ignition in RUN or ON position , with a test light or volt meter , look for 12 volts on the ignition coil + side. That is where electricity will go when you turn the key to ON or RUN . You should see 12 volts with ignition on , not cranking starter.
    If you manage to get the starter to crank reliably , like normally should and engine won't fire (run) , look for voltage on the ignition coil - (negative) side to distributor while cranking.
    As always , post when you can , crossing my fingers your next post is after a test drive !
    your getting closer , one step at a time and be safe . Getting too anxious can be costly.
    Just approach every test and step right and if not sure , please ask. Things are going better and we want you to do it right. I know you'll make us proud. Best of luck as always and will get you copies of all the wiring diagrams you'll need to complete your jeep . Hope to see that manual soon. It's an original reprint , it's got to be right. Best of luck buddy , greg92jeepxj
    Last edited by greg92jeepxj; 06-16-2013 at 06:50 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: seized starter

    Does your solenoid have an extra little pole on it or is it only a four pole solenoid? I ask because the jeep solenoid for the auto tranny has an extra little pole on it that comes off your trans and you won't be able to start with out it

  19. #19
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    Re: seized starter

    Good call SUPERJ ! That's the one from the neutral safety switch . We don't know if he's got stick or auto , but if stick , it still has to have a clutch start switch. It's a 1980 he said and it must have one or the other , auto or stick. Check my post with a couple of diagrams I was able to find , it shows the coil positive is fed from the ign. switch from the " I " terminal with the module involved . It upsets me that I cannot find the right diagram with a NSS or clutch start switch , but the coil test , ign. ON and ign. CRANK or START checking coil negative will tell if its wired right. I know he's done for the day cause its going on nite here , but we'll get an answer soon. Hey , maybe he's becoming certified and pulling an all niter being that close ! I would if I were that close . As long as the Mosquitos aren't out , and the drop lights kicking , I would ! Hope he gets it , I'm getting anxious to hear good news !

  20. #20
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    Re: seized starter

    yeah the starter is working
    i laid starter on ground so i could check for voltage while ignition switch was on but had some bad results due to a ground connection i had made with jumper cables from the starter to the frame. i think the frame paint wasn't giving me a good ground. i found a chassis bolt and the starter worked and held voltage tester to it during the ignition and start cycle of the ignition switch. looks like it jumped to around 10v or so, then to o when the start cycle was released back into ignition cycle. then installed starter , started engine then took voltage reading on starter while running and no voltage detected. so it appears that this wiring illustration solved it
    i do have a 4 pole solenoid but this wiring doesn't have me running anything to the "i" pole as did the others
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails seized starter-durasparkfinal.jpg  

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