Roving Wire Taps?

Bottom line is I'd rather have the government making rules and breaking rules than a bunch of unchecked terrorists running around crashing planes and dropping chemical bombs. If you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about.
If Iraq didn't have a direct hand in 9/11 I'm sure it wouldn't have been long before they were part of something bigger. President Bush unfortunately was given bad info. And because of that we started this war. But if he started by saying "we're going into Iraq to remove a terrible man from power the general opinion of him would probably be a lot better now. Plus, I'm sure not one of you would disagree with me when I say if someone like Sadam Husein was running our country we'd want someone to come in and give us the freedom that every human being deserves. We certainly would not be having this discussion in this forum. I can tell you first hand that the people in Iraq are overjoyed that we are here doing this job. They would wipe my butt for me if I let them! They are that happy to be free and have a job so they can provide for their families. The Kuwaitis will still bend over backwards for an American soldier and it's been over 10 years since we liberated them. I have not met one Kuwaiti or Iraqi that does not have a smile for me. When was the last time you got that from a perfect stranger in the U.S.? The only thing that I regret is the fact that these people may be as bitter as us 200 years from now.
 
jumppr said:
Bottom line is I'd rather have the government making rules and breaking rules than a bunch of unchecked terrorists running around crashing planes and dropping chemical bombs. If you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about.
If Iraq didn't have a direct hand in 9/11 I'm sure it wouldn't have been long before they were part of something bigger. President Bush unfortunately was given bad info. And because of that we started this war. But if he started by saying "we're going into Iraq to remove a terrible man from power the general opinion of him would probably be a lot better now. Plus, I'm sure not one of you would disagree with me when I say if someone like Sadam Husein was running our country we'd want someone to come in and give us the freedom that every human being deserves. We certainly would not be having this discussion in this forum. I can tell you first hand that the people in Iraq are overjoyed that we are here doing this job. They would wipe my butt for me if I let them! They are that happy to be free and have a job so they can provide for their families. The Kuwaitis will still bend over backwards for an American soldier and it's been over 10 years since we liberated them. I have not met one Kuwaiti or Iraqi that does not have a smile for me. When was the last time you got that from a perfect stranger in the U.S.? The only thing that I regret is the fact that these people may be as bitter as us 200 years from now.
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jumppr, I hope my comments have not offended you or affected in any way your resolve in your mission. I would want someone like you covering my back as I would be covering yours, given the situation. I just do not like the way our country is heading under the present leadership, and this wire-tap thing is just another thorn in my side. I am truly ashamed by the situation in with the "detainees" in Guantanamo.........4 years without a trial, or charges, or whatever??????? Is that what this country is about?????? Try them, kill them, or let them go...........c'mon!!!!! And now we're going to give the government the freedom to listen to whatever they darn well please???? Sorry, I can't condone that. Hopefully, you're over there defending something better. You watch you're arse!! and we'll try to straighten things out over here. Patriots forever!! Tyrants never!!!!

Watch your arse and get your Jeepin' arse back here!!
 

I absolutely disagree with these wire taps.

Think of all the crimes we could prevent if we tapped everyone's phone. Heck, we could prevent all sorts of crimes before they occur. Think of how many lives might be saved. <---sarcasm here folks.

There are already mechanisms in place to get approvals in hours...minutes if necessary...or justify a tap shortly after-the-fact. The current wiretaps and Presidental assertion of his own authority has by-passed ALL OF THIS.

This is very wrong and a VERY dangerous precent.
 
Out of Step (almost asked the wrong person these questions-man am I tired and I know I may get flamed by this but I'm honest). Although the constitution was what our country was founded on, it's still a document created years ago in a different time. Who is to say terminology meant the same thing as it does today?

For instance if in vauge words (to us now) a king who had founded our country documented that "we shall cut someone's head off at 2 pm every saturday" would people still be doing that today or fighting for it?

I appreciate all sides of a debate and I am interested in hearing more of yours as it seems different than mine.

Other than the constitution being a document they taught me about in elementary school (and made me memorize parts of) it hasn't been a face to face thing or anything I've heard much about since in my daily life (until these recent political battles). I'm about as close to it on a regular basis now as I was when I was ten and learned what it was.

I don't know. It's hard to explain how I feel or what I mean on this topic. I sort of understand what you and others are saying but I just can't feel it. I really don't know my reasons why.

I do what you to know that I love my country and what it stands for, no matter how I feel about the constitution and other older founding documents.

Lady
 
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Special_K said:
The current wiretaps and Presidental assertion of his own authority has by-passed ALL OF THIS.

This is very wrong and a VERY dangerous precent.
Click to expand...

Of that..there is NO DOUBT. ssiiigghhh..
 
Mud you haven't offended me. I surely do not try to offend anyone else here either. I think we've proven we can have these discussions and all still remain friends. The main point I'm trying to get across is that the times they have changed and are forever changing. Therefore the rules must change. Yes it is an infringement on your liberties and rights for the government to listen in on phone conversations and there are those that will fight it to the death. At the same time there are just as many people blaming the government because the steps they could've taken (wire tapping, etc.) to save innocent lives were not. Who's going to win? Yes President Bush has a lot of power to do anything he wants now, but guess what? So did the last president and so will the next. This is unfortunately the way it's going to be now. Life changes - the world still spins - and then we die. This argument will continue for decades to come. In the beginning everyone hated taxes, but it's something that we do now. We still don't like it, but it's understood that it's a necessary evil. One day when we're all dead and gone they'll probably say "those nuts in the 21 century didn't want to have wiretaps. Think of where we'd be now if we didn't?"
Unfortunately for me I've been in the military since highschool and I've never really been able to enjoy complete freedom from the man, but I do know I enjoy the heck out of what I do have and I know it would be much worse if there were less. Because of this I'm probably not the right person to offer comment on this, but I don't think that wiretapping is too high a price to pay to continue enjoying these freedoms.
 
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If they want to listen to what I have to say then so be it. If they don't agree with what I have to say then my rights as an American citizen would be protected by The Constitution of The United States of America. Those that are not citizens, in my opinion, are free to be prosecuted through the use of any means necessary.

I think the residents of America are the target here, not the citizens of America.
 

firemanharry said:
If they want to listen to what I have to say then so be it. If they don't agree with what I have to say then my rights as an American citizen would be protected by The Constitution of The United States of America. Those that are not citizens, in my opinion, are free to be prosecuted through the use of any means necessary.

I think the residents of America are the target here, not the citizens of America.
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Very well said, Harry.

Oh, and Jumppr, I agree with what you said about the reason we're in Iraq right now. I fully believe that Bush's main goal in the war was to take Saddam out of power and restore liberty to the people of Iraq, not the WMD issue. I just wish he'd said that to begin with. In my heart, I believe he knew the WMD didn't exist. I'd have a lot more respect for him if he'd busted into my nightly sitcoms to tell me we were going to go after Saddam and restore the rights and freedoms of the Iraqi people. I've been PO'd since his daddy stopped at the Kuwait border back in the early 90's. I fully support what we are doing in Iraq, though I wish we didn't have to do it. I pray that you will be back with us soon, along with all of your fellow soldiers. Pulling out now isn't an option, and the freedom of Iraq will come at the price of many more of our sons and daughters.

I'm ok with the wire taps' main purpose, but I'm not ok with the way they were authorized (self authorized by the Prez). We have a system of checks and balances, and as was mentioned before (I think by 90), they can be approved through that system in very short order. Along with Mud, I've probably got an extensive file up in Washington, but on the other hand, I'm no terrorist so I don't worry about hearing someone's standard issue kicking in my door. If they wanna tap my phone, they'd be bored to tears listening to me talk about my soon-to-be grandson and my Jeep and my new puppy.....not much else.


Oh, and let me reiterate what Mud has said and what I have said before: Stay safe and come home soon, Jumppr!!!!! Thank you for serving and keeping my country safe!!
 
Does anyone else find it totally amazing that we can be talking politics with a solider (jumppr) actually involved and present in the war we are discussing. Holy technology!
 
judge09 said:
Does anyone else find it totally amazing that we can be talking politics with a solider (jumppr) actually involved and present in the war we are discussing. Holy technology!
Click to expand...

You guys don't know how glad I am to just be able to still get on Jeepz! At least they can't take that away from me!
Seriously though I just want to thank all of you for your support and well wishes. If it weren't for that I'd have stopped doing this job years ago. Plus, please don't worry about offending me in way with statements about war or politics. I'm a big boy and if I don't like something I'll let you know or I just won't read it! Again I hope I don't offend anyone with anything I say. Merry (4 days before) Christmas and to all a better night than me!
 

Jumping in late here... probably a good thing on a subject like this one :p

Just the mere fact that it was even discussed in our country disgusts me. Many men fought and died to earn and then to protect freedoms like these. For what? Certainly not for our own government to violate them. It is disgraceful. We are fighting to liberate Iraq as they watch us give our liberties away. Some feeling of reassurance that must give them... we must look like complete imbacills to anyone who looks hard and long at the liberties we have (or once had). :(

I guess you can put me down as against them.

90's post (he beat me to it, as it was the first thing that came to mind), Mud's comment about being close to a police state, and Terry's comment about knee-jerk wartime laws are all true.

Those knee-jerk laws always seem to bite us in the posterior.
 
Nah I don't flame, I rarely take anything on the internet that seriously. :)

Yeah it was a different time; at the time paper communication was the zeinith of technology. No doubt used by both revolutionaries and counter revolutionaries. Yet the civil liberty of privacy is protected, even specifically related to paper comunication.

You notice that with probable cause search may be carried out. That seems pretty reasonable to me, why would you search if you have no reason to do so? How hard is it to prove probable cause, police do it every single time they pull someone over.

As far as the terminology goes its pretty hard for the term "shall not" to be interpreted in any other way than it was meant to be read. The bible has lots of "shall not" that I and I'm sure you subscribe to; it was written long before the constitution and has been transcribed in and out of dead languages endless times.

Again I do not see how anyone can say that the constituion or bill of rights is vague. There are no mights, buts, or's, maybe's, sometimes, or perhaps in either document.

There is a difference in between the constitution that was ratified by the people to protect the rights of the people and a decree from a monarch. Remember the constitution was ratified to protect the people from a monarchy.

The real question is that if a president (or monarch to be) declared that, counter to the philosophical foundation of our government, all people should be monitored at all times and detained at will for indeterminate periods of time if they appeared to be against the will of the state, would you agree to it? You've already answered yes.

How about if we declared that all people of middle eastern descent should be locked up in internment camps? After all we did it during WWII and it must have worked, no large scale sabotage took place, and people felt much safer.

Its all about perception, do you really think that the people of America are in more danger now than they were post ratification of the constitution? Remember 30 years after the constitution was signed the whitehouse was under seige and burned nearly to the ground.

I'm always surprised how easily people will give up all of their freedoms through attrition or fear.

There are so many more things that are so much more likely to kill you than terrorism.

The day the populous deems that the constitution is antiquated, useless, and ripe for discarding is the day that I deem all law and doctrine to be antiquated and useless.
 
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OutOfStep said:
I do not see how anyone can say that the constituion or bill of rights is vague. There are no mights, buts, or's, maybe's, sometimes, or perhaps in either document.
Click to expand...

So very true. Sure it is a living document, but that concept was not supposed to be a means of dismantling it, which is exactly what has been happening for a long time now.

And another thing... the Patriot act is almost dead, just a few days left. That makes me happy.

This comes from a die hard conservative.
 

good ole TJ didn't even believe in the bill of rights, he believed that the federal government should never be given enough power over the people to be in a position where the peoples rights could be taken away; he saw it at best as redundance and at worst inviting the feds to take away rights that weren't specifically protected therein
 
OutOfStep said:
Nah I don't flame, I rarely take anything on the internet that seriously. :)

Yeah it was a different time; at the time paper communication was the zeinith of technology. No doubt used by both revolutionaries and counter revolutionaries. Yet the civil liberty of privacy is protected, even specifically related to paper comunication.

You notice that with probable cause search may be carried out. That seems pretty reasonable to me, why would you search if you have no reason to do so? How hard is it to prove probable cause, police do it every single time they pull someone over.

As far as the terminology goes its pretty hard for the term "shall not" to be interpreted in any other way than it was meant to be read. The bible has lots of "shall not" that I and I'm sure you subscribe to; it was written long before the constitution and has been transcribed in and out of dead languages endless times.

Again I do not see how anyone can say that the constituion or bill of rights is vague. There are no mights, buts, or's, maybe's, sometimes, or perhaps in either document.

There is a difference in between the constitution that was ratified by the people to protect the rights of the people and a decree from a monarch. Remember the constitution was ratified to protect the people from a monarchy.

The real question is that if a president (or monarch to be) declared that, counter to the philosophical foundation of our government, all people should be monitored at all times and detained at will for indeterminate periods of time if they appeared to be against the will of the state, would you agree to it? You've already answered yes.

How about if we declared that all people of middle eastern descent should be locked up in internment camps? After all we did it during WWII and it must have worked, no large scale sabotage took place, and people felt much safer.

Its all about perception, do you really think that the people of America are in more danger now than they were post ratification of the constitution? Remember 30 years after the constitution was signed the whitehouse was under seige and burned nearly to the ground.

I'm always surprised how easily people will give up all of their freedoms through attrition or fear.

There are so many more things that are so much more likely to kill you than terrorism.

The day the populous deems that the constitution is antiquated, useless, and ripe for discarding is the day that I deem all law and doctrine to be antiquated and useless.
Click to expand...


Very excellent, well thought out, well articulated post.8) :agree:
 
How to trap wild hogs.

Problem: Wild hogs around here are very destructive and costly to the farmers. They are also very wild and hard to even approach without scaring them off.

Solution:

Put out ample amounts of feed in a open area for them to eat. Let them come in daily to eat the free food.
After a few days of this, drive in t-post fence stakes every few feet in a circle around the free food. They will be a little concerned at first, but soon relax and begin eating again.
After a few more days start putting up fence panels one by one, day by day slowly over a period of time. They will be a little concerned at first, but soon start looking for the entrance to the corral you have built to get inside to the free food.

After the area is completly fenced in, gate open, free food in place, simply wait and they will walk right into the fenced area to eat with no concern at all.

Then...simply....close the gate.


That is what happens to society when we trade our freedom for a little security, it happens so slowly over time until the gate is shut.. then..it is too late.:?
 
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