I hate to harp on this....

[TwistedCU]

I do support our troops. I just think those animals are incapable of sustaining a democracy. We took out Saddam, who deserved to go no doubt about it, but eventually another will worm his way in. Same thing happened in Iran. I didn't say we shouldn't have gone in, but now we have a mess on our hands. What the hell do we do now??? Peace is a pipe dream, especially over there.
We can't change the world, but we can and most definately should defend ourselves against any enemy foriegn or domestic. We kicked Saddam's ass because he broke an agreement and was aware of the penalty of doing so. He paid that price. With that done, we defended our position and followed through with our obligation. Why are we still there? Can anybody give me a constitutionally sound reason we are still there? Johnny - I'm no freakin peace hippy I'm a constitutionalist!

Jumppr - Don't take my posts as being anti military, anti troops, or anything like that. I support and thank you for the service to our country and defending me. You guys kick ass and we are ALL mighty proud. I just am making a point that our job may be done over there.

 

[mingez]

This thread just got really disturbing.

"Sheet Heads"? Are you freaking kidding me? So, now we are going to stoop to their level by being racist as well? That is just plain ignorant.
The US military has 4,000 Muslims of arab discent in it's ranks fighting the same good fight. Don't insult them, as they too are fighting for YOUR rights. And are just as AMERICAN.

I hate those people for doing what they did, and it's disgusting. I too want to kill everyone responsible for the atrocity that occured. I am so freaking pissed! But you can't persecute the entire middle east for the wrongs of the extremists. Nuking the entire region is akin to nuking the entire Northwest US because it has a lot of white supremists. Most of those "Sheet Heads" are our friends. To you they may look the same, but they aren't.

We have got to be better than that, as I know we are.

 

[TwistedCU]

Mingez, the nuke reference at the end of my post was really a joke, but I deleted it anyway.

 

[mingez]

a/c,heater problem

Mingez, the nuke reference at the end of my post was really a joke, but I deleted it anyway.

Oh, I didn't even see the nuke ref. on your post. I like most of what you said, and wasn't referring to you. sorry. I'm just seeing some scary things being said from some others.

God I hope those bastards responsible for Berg's death are destroyed, and suffer for what they did. It's terrible, just terrible.

 

[Sully]

Easy people easy. I havent seen the video, and from the sounds of it I dont want to. It may change the way I look at all of these peole. We need to keep doing and fix this. That video was just to scare us. This is what they want, they want us to pull out so they can organize bigger and better attacks and someone else just as bad as sadam can rise to power. God bless and go kick butt out in foriegn lands. I salute you!

 

[MudderChuck]

Maybe it´s a question of perspective, I used to say often and really believed, that 90% of the Muslim population, were just like everybody else, so busy trying to make ends meet, they don´t really have much time for terrorism or radicalism.
But I´m slowly changing my mind, Saudi Arabian politics is being largely driven by extremists. As well as Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Indonisia, most of North Africa and others. Not to mention Iran, where Muslim fundamentalism, really got going, then spread to the Southern parts of the old USSR.
Much of Europe is hiding with there head in the sand or at best playing, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
When the cold war was on, Russia never sent and/or supported suicide attacks on the World trade center. Seems like the extremists, don´t play by the rules. And are a whole lot more feral than, than some of our past competitors.
Face it, we are seriously outnumbered and our way of life is seriously threatened. And it´s pretty obvious, the extremeists and fundimentalists are getting support from somebody, who´s purpose seems to be, to rearrange the world order. Starting with the U.S. A weakened or overextended U.S. will allow the threat to spread.
Guess we can throw money at the problem, or good intentions, or reason, or even Democracy, or Freedom, politicians or even lawyers. Don´t believe it´s going to help much.
Maybe not nukes, yet.
Just a little food for thought, if global warming is for real and the temp. keeps going up, like it has for the last 35 years, I´ve paid any attention to it. What is going to be the first part of the globe to become unlivable and were are the people going to migrate too.
The head Cop in Germany, was on a news show the other day, said Muslim extremism, is the biggest threat to Germany, since the Normandy invasion. It wasn´t repeated or disseminated at all, just a passing, no Sheit, commentary. Upwords of 20% of the population in Germany is Muslims of one flavor or another, many of the politicians are scared silly. The Muslim families typically outbreed the endemic German familys 2.4 to one.
It would behove the youngsters out there to pay attention and start developing, an attitude, of serious intent or direction. Or whatever you have, (while probably not enough), is going to be taken away from you. And you´ll be forced to sacrifice, much of whatever life style you´ve attained. Things could turn to sheit in a hurry.
Mr. Tillman and Mr. Berg are some of the more recent, high profile casualties of the WAR. Many have all ready died, to perpetuate your way of life, no matter how inperfect it is.
Last thought of a long rant, I really wish they would stop with the 911 commisions, the prisoner abuse investigations and apply there energy and intelect into a way out of this mess.
If it takes a MOAB on a few Mosques or even a Neutron bomb on a city. It might save lives in the long run. Might force the militants to look for solutions, rather than conquest and/or realigning the world order.
Japanese had a reputation for visciousness and largely invented the suicide attack. We all remember what brought about the end to that war.

 

[TwistedCU]

Chuck,
I agree with you on most of your points, but I still don't see what we are accomplishing over there now that Saddam is already out. You point out they want to weaken and over - extend us. We are doing that to ourselves right now. This occupation bull-sheit is exactly what has killed every great army/empire that made that mistake throughout history (i.e.: Crusades, Rome, Germany, Kubli Kahn, the list goes on.).

There is an old adage - Know your history our you are bound to repeat it.

We need to choose our battles, then get them done and move on. As you say we are greatly outnumbered, and our technology is our advantage. We need to use it as such.

 

[MudderChuck]

Winch cable...

Yes Saddam is out, but what´s there to replace him? We have removed a Dictator that fancied himself a modern day, Hannibal or whatever. The Iranians, would probably be in there pretty quick, set up a fundimentalist government in there own image, if given the chance. The Turks would move in pretty quick in the North, run off as many Kurds as possible (they get along like Jews and Palistians) and take over the northen oil. The Eurpeans, would probably just rape the place and leave when things got too hairy. The U.S, is probable trying to set up a puppet government, with them managing from the background, might work out OK for the Iraqis, if they´ll accept it. At the same time, use it as a showplace for an alternative to conquest, fundimentalism, extremism or secular dictatorship. Like South Korea, Tawain, Germany to name few. U.S. stewardship has worked well for some people. Less well for others.
The next question is when and were do you try to change the direction of the fundimentalist movement. Having a major U.S. presence in the region has to be getting the attention of fundimentalist and the Muslim empire movement. Seems they have already exported it to the U.S. with a bang on 911 and by subversion in some of the Mosques in the U.S. Europe, while not precarious, is definately leaning in the fundimentalist direction, social conflict is inevidable. The old southern states of the USSR are in a mess.
The alternative is to leave Iraq in a shambles and probably have one less enemy to worry about for some years. Let the region reconsolodate and the fundimentlaist empire movement to easily expand.
Personnaly I think it was a mistake to go in in the first place. The US has some serious problems at home to take care of. But the sanctions were falling apart, mostly due to European greed. Was just a matter of time, before Saddam (or his sons) rearmed and started some new meaness. Might turn out to be the wrong battle at the wrong time, but then again it may turn out to be, an alternative/deterent, to the fundementalist Islamic movement.

 

[TwistedCU]

I had a lot of discussion about this today and I'll buy what youre saying Chuck, but these people are different from the more civilized Germany, Korea, and Taiwan. Maybe it will work out, but I doubt it. I guess at this point we have no other choice but to try, otherwise we left them open to the warlords, al queda, and their not so friendly neighbors. It's going to be costly though, with lives and money.

One thing though - since we beat Saddam, shouldn't we be getting cheaper oil by now? hehehe

 

[MudderChuck]

I was contimplating the price of oil the other day. Two possibilities crossed my mind. One is pretty much the same thing that happened in the early 70´s, after the war in Nam, to pay for it, they started printing more lucky bucks, which in effect made them worth less. OPEC uped the price of oil. OPEC may be charging more for there oil, or it may be they are getting less for there dollars. Second, is the middle eastern oil producers, gotta be feeling the pressure of the U.S. controlling the Iraqi fields, even if they arn´t really producing much yet and have decided to play the oil card, one more time and push back a bit.
I really think, the military, with political direction, is working a little to hard at hearts and minds. A little more grab them by the testicals and there hearts and minds will follow right along, might be a tactic the Iraqis may understand/identify with a little better.
I see the TV of soldiers patroling with light skinned vehicles, in areas where they regularly come under machine gun and rocket attack. Seems like an Armor environment to me. Trying to save a few bucks by using Hummers and/or maybe making a good impression/image, seems to be costing more lives than necessary. A 155 MM suppository fired out of a tank main gun, will work wonders on belligerent souls, who fire rockets. As will a rocket out of a helicopter (Isreales seem to be really good at using them as a sniper type weapon). If they tried to send me down a highway in Iraq, in a convoy, without Armored escort. I´d have to think long and hard about wether to do it or tell them where to kiss.
I´m not talking through my exhaust opening, put me in an old M-60 tank, with reactive armor added. The canon removed and a 20MM chain gun in it´s place and I´d go hunt for rocket launchers. Been there done that, you have a pretty good chance of survival and doing some real damage, with a tank, helicopter, mortor team. The old Amored Cav. combined arms teams. 6 of the old M-60 tanks, cost about he same as one M-! Abrams and the Abrams doesn´t add that much to the mix, in an urban environment.

Thanx for listening to my rant, Cooper.

Chuck

 

[john_tara4]

I laughed continuously at his speculation. This kid has no understanding of what he speaks. I am an Army officer and Apache pilot who served for a year in Iraq. Yes it sucked and we did our share of bitching, but every day we would meet Iraqi's whose lives were negatively altered forever by Saddam. Whether their wives were raped by his sons or their brothers were executed for not serving in the military, the locals were overwhelmingly grateful that the coalition put and end to those atrocities. For the first time in over thirty years, girls are allowed to attend school, free elections are taking place, hospital staffing is at 100% up from 35%, the oil is now providing jobs and sustenance for Iraqi citizens instead of paying for Saddams gold toilet seats or lining the pockets of French officials. Tillman is a hero as much as every other person who gave their life for another to enjoy simple freedoms like platforming ideas for which there is no validity. The real heroes are the ones who have been disfigured. Their battle will continue for the rest of their lives. We all signed the dotted line and know the extent of our duties. We stand watch in the places of our fathers, so that our children have a future free of oppression. Let us not be too hard on the fellow who wrote against Tillman, for it is the benchmark of my service. As long as he is allowed to spew his opinionated views, I will know that I am doing my part to keep terrorism away from our homes and winning.

CW2 John F. Longo

 

[mingez]

I laughed continuously at his speculation. This kid has no understanding of what he speaks. I am an Army officer and Apache pilot who served for a year in Iraq. Yes it sucked and we did our share of bitching, but every day we would meet Iraqi's whose lives were negatively altered forever by Saddam. Whether their wives were raped by his sons or their brothers were executed for not serving in the military, the locals were overwhelmingly grateful that the coalition put and end to those atrocities. For the first time in over thirty years, girls are allowed to attend school, free elections are taking place, hospital staffing is at 100% up from 35%, the oil is now providing jobs and sustenance for Iraqi citizens instead of paying for Saddams gold toilet seats or lining the pockets of French officials. Tillman is a hero as much as every other person who gave their life for another to enjoy simple freedoms like platforming ideas for which there is no validity. The real heroes are the ones who have been disfigured. Their battle will continue for the rest of their lives. We all signed the dotted line and know the extent of our duties. We stand watch in the places of our fathers, so that our children have a future free of oppression. Let us not be too hard on the fellow who wrote against Tillman, for it is the benchmark of my service. As long as he is allowed to spew his opinionated views, I will know that I am doing my part to keep terrorism away from our homes and winning.

CW2 John F. Longo

John, your response is the most eloquent one I have heard to date. You too are a hero, and please know that I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I am in awe of your ability to see the big picture. Such wherwithal is hard to come by, and your post demonstrates a ton of it. The essay IS the benchmark, and while he is misguided in my personal opinion, represents everything we are fighting for.

I wish I could meet you in person so I could shake your hand.

With the utmost respect,
Ian Dominguez

 

[MudderChuck]

Well said, John. I for one appreciate your efforts and sacrifice. I go through some hand wringing, watching the news, listening to the politicians, the pampered and insulated regurgitating oppinion on the internet.
I´ve been through a few conflicts, I relate to the troops and worry.

With respect, hang tough and good luck.

Chuck

 

[eat_sleep_jeep]

:shock: I thought this was a jeep message board :?: Maybe cnn.com has a message board for you guys, haha

 

[mingez]

:shock: I thought this was a jeep message board :?: Maybe cnn.com has a message board for you guys, haha

It's a General Chat section. :wink:

 

[MudderChuck]

In the short pauses my Jeep gives me, between oil leaks, sensor failures and drivetrain problems. I sometimes think about world problems. Who better to share couple of thoughts with, than some other wrench heads.
Besides, I probably have a better chance of solving the problems in Iraq , than keeping up with the repairs on my XJ. :mrgreen:

 

[mingez]

In the short pauses my Jeep gives me, between oil leaks, sensor failures and drivetrain problems. I sometimes think about world problems. Who better to share couple of thoughts with, than some other wrench heads.
Besides, I probably have a better chance of solving the problems in Iraq , than keeping up with the repairs on my XJ. :mrgreen:

LOL. Probably. You and me both.
:lol:

 

[bchcky]

R.I.P.

friday 4-22-05 is the one year anniversary of the death of Patrick Tillman. i figure it is noteworthy to everyone here considering what is still going on in the world today. let us not forget the other men and women of our armed forces that risk their lives on a daily basis so we may enjoy debating about the penal system in america and the race in the AL East. each and every one of them is a hero. Tillman's feats do not overshadow anyone that gave their life before, with or after him, but he brings coverage because of his athlete status. so on this day, let us remember what really matters. not how underpaid and overworked you are, not what movies come out this weekend, or how much fun you'll have on your day off, and certainly not the brand of clothes you wear or products you use. what matters is the american flag, and what it stands for. the men and women overseas (may they come home safe and soon). you dont have to agree with american politics, heck, you dont even have to like them, but you better realize the good fortune you enjoy while living here, and appreciate what makes it so.

 

[Ritt]

I haven't read through all of the posts BUT, what would you expect from the commonwealth that holds that lush and murder, Teddy Kennedy, in such high esteem? :roll:

 

[TwistedCU]

tj front control arm

This was a good thread. One year already? I hope his family is doing OK.

I'm still waiting for our oil :lol: