I hate to harp on this....

jps4jeep

Super Moderator
Seriously, this is in response to the previous post that I put up here, and if you have nothing to say that is decent, keep it ot your self.

But... I am a educator at a university in Boston, and one of the universities in our system had this published by a grad student earlier this week!

Beware, ignorance is live and present, and is pissing me off

"Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him


By Rene Gonzalez
April 28, 2004



When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start talking about him as a 'hero' in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did not want to make that bet. He'd lose. In this self-critical incapable nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He's a hero" response is to be expected.

I've been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman's "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it's not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman's army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed."

But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.

However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.

Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.

Perhaps it's the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal of heroism, no matter what they've done. After all, the American nation has no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and credibility problems.

Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders.

Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman's service, along with that of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we won't realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their deaths.

Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student."
 

First off, you have to admit that the only idiot here is Rene Gonzalez, the person writing this piece. How is it that someone who was not even born in this country, but rather in Puerto Rico, feels that they have the right to speak down upon those men and women who serve our country and defend the freedoms that we enjoy every day and that make it possible for people of other nations to come here so easily to get an education. Pat Tillman, along with all of the other service men and women who have died, have done so with honor and I personally consider each and every person serving our country to be a "hero".

This person complains that Pat Tillman gave up a 3.6 million dollar contract to go play "G.I. Joe" and invade another country..... Pat Tillman, and his brother (along with many other Americans) joined the armed forces after the attacks of September 11 to help "defend the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power," which Gonzalez must have clearly forgotten what happened on that day, as the focus of this peice was clearly that the US invaded another country with no reason. It was these attacks that drove Tillman to join the Army. He felt the need to serve his country, and felt that he could be more beneficial as an elite Army Ranger, rather than playing on Sundays and Monday nights.

Has the media given Tillman's death more attention than the other hundreds of those who have died? Yes... and one reason for this is because it is a "heart felt" story. American's can listen to his story of giving up a life in which he had everything going for him, had success, money, and all of the things that make up the "American Dream." However, that is not all that the American Dream was to Tillman, and that is why he chose to go and fight for his country. It was not a choice to join the Army just to go play Rambo and invade another country... he was serving his country, and went where the leaders of this nation sent him. That was his duty, and I'm sure that he, and all others serving, did it with all the honor they possibly could have.

Ok... enough rambling.... but, I had to voice my opinion about this person, who if they do not appreciate all that is offered in this country, and does not wish to support those who serve it, should consider going back to their homeland and let us appreciate and honor the sacrifices of these men and women who make them.
 
we've got a ton of those kinda grad students here as well, all here on education visa's, all piss and moan about how bad the US sucks and how evil it is... all plan on staying here once graduated.... none consider returning to their countries with their education to try and make a difference for the better for their people and families. no sense of civic duty.
 

First, I would like to give many thanks to all the men and women who are in the Armed Forces of our country that may stop and read this post. I am thankful for each and every one of you, and can not tell you how much you people mean to me, not to mention this country.
Second, I believe it was rude of the author of that piece to criticize Mr. Tillman for joining the Army Rangers. He might, and I stress might, have done it to act out some Rambo desire, but he was not a general who got to decide what mission he would do or not do. He had superiors who decided where to send him. He was sent, to wherever, to accomplish a mission that would help us gain ground against the terrorists, and not to go around shooting people with an AK-47, like Rambo. I salute Mr. Tillmans efforts, sacrifice or no sacrifice, it is not for me to decide, and his courage for fighting for OUR country.
Third, I believe someone needs to take Mr. Gonzalez, and sit him down, and make him acutally watch all the Rambo movies, and then compare what the media is saying about Mr. Tillman. Then he should have to write a paper 15-20 pages long about how his views have changed.

All of the military service people are heros to me
 
I guess I should've been more clear about Puerto Rico... yes, part of the US, however is a commonwealth of the US. As such, they do not vote in the presidential elections and have a non-voting member in the US House.... that's all I meant

Also, I hadn't read the thread posted earlier.... hope my comments don't rub anyone the wrong way, or start any other debates!
 
I think that anyone, ANYONE, that has these opinions of our country or our service men/women and have the right to speak it. should take advantage of another Given right. . .

The Right to LEAVE!!!

Pesronally, I don't think Tillman deserves the "Hero" documentary either. Everyone of our troops deserves it.
They deserve it for working for a paycheck that everyone else is awarded Well-Fare for.
They deserve it for leaving their families behind, No matter Mom, Dad, Girlfriend, Wife, children, it's ALL family.
They deserve it for knowing what can happen but still putting their "John Handkock" on a pink paper that says "You can give your heart to Jesus but your a$$ belongs to Uncle Sam"

there are many more reason they ALL deserve it. And Pat is no different except people will recognize his name on CNN and give them the ratings they seek.

Bless everone that is out there and all that will be headed there before this is all done. You all deserve more respect than you are getting. Charge hard and bring yourselves back home.
 

Stupid thing logged me out after typing a responce. here is the readers digest version

Tillman is a hero anyone who serves to protect us is a hero, anyone who will give up 3.6 mil to help someone else is a hero whoever wrote this is ignorant and should be ashamed they are in America.
 
Gonzales has since issued an apology, as has the University President, while supporting one's right to opinion.

Gonzales could not have been more close-minded and wrong. I wish Gonzales had been alongside me through Infantry training, he'd surely be a little more compassionate towards selflessness.
 
They are all heros. Putting your life on the line for people who could care less. Even with so many people in their OWN country opposing what they are doing. Keeping US safe from all who oppose us. Protecting the freedoms we have. Dieing for people they have never met and will never know. That is what our soldiers are doing. People will say that they are baby killers and whatever. They are not, they are entering these deadly places to protect OUR lives. Protect OUR freedom. These soldiers need our support and so do their families. They are doing the right thing. I hope some day what I do can compair to what they have done.

God Bless America.
 

Interesting... while the article was definitely leaning in one direction, it was well thought out and intelligently presented. It was not putting down the troops, but was not supporting them either. I thought it was a very well written editorial article. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with everything that it states, but if all these liberals that are out there protesting the war would think like this guy, you'd see alot less protesting and alot more change for the better. This country needs more educated people like this guy. That article definitely sums up what this country is about.. the right to express your opinion...
 
My son just retired from the US Navy, and is now living within 25 miles of me. He's not my son by birth, but by marriage. Though I've only known him for 6 years, he calls me "Dad" and I call him my son. That was just for background. Now, on to the point. My wife is just now starting to sleep through the night without waking up screaming from a nightmare about her son. She has been much more calm and forgiving since he is home, safe and alive. He is a hero. He never saw combat, but combat would not have gone as well if it weren't for him and his crew. Due to his security clearance, he cannot tell us anything specific about his service, but judging from the commendations from the Admiral of the Navy, he did his job quite well. I say he is a hero, because I know in my heart that the job he performed helped to save the lives of thousands of brave men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is Pat Tillman any more of a hero than my son? No. He bled and died just the same as that kid from the slums that joined up in part to help his country, and in part to help his family, by earning a little money to put food on their table. I have several friends in Iraq, and have lost two friends in Iraq. I have friends who have lost sons and daughters in Iraq. No one person who is killed in that war deserves any more special attention than another, regardless of their "pre-war" life. We are all human, we all bleed and die. Just that some bleed and die long before their time is due. I have nothing but the greatest respect and gratitude for all of our armed service members, and support them through prayer and well-wishes. Pat Tillman was a hero, but his life before the service doesn't entitle him to a status of hero above any other soldier who gave his life for his country. God Bless the USA!
 
He wasn't defending me
stupidest thing i ever heard. he was defending the whole country, yourself and the US owned puerto rico included. i would like to say that i have the utmost thanks and respect for anyone who serves to protect our great nation, it takes a special person to put yourself in harms way for people you dont even know

the story was ignorant, i live in boston, i'm a criminal justice student, and i also work for the state department, what pat tillman did was courageous. has this kid ever heard of standing up for something he believes in? now i wont pretend that i know pat tillman....but from everything i saw, he seemed to be an extremely proud individual, someone who saw any action against his country as an act against himself. pat tillman did not give one interview between the time he decided to enlist and his tragic death. he would not allow CNN or other news crews follow him through boot camp. he wanted nothing other than to be one of the boys. this was not some kid who saw too many bruce willis movies, this was a man, standing up for what he believed in right down through every bone in his body.

pat tillman should be glorified, but let us not forget the thousands of other men and women who put themselves just as much in harms way as he did. celebrity status is not always a blessing. but use this to remember that he was one of many. one of many soldiers that are the very reason we're able to go off on rants like this, able to say what we want, able to enjoy the luxuries that we all take for granted. our country was started with a military, and it will live, and die by the military for the remainder of its existence. sun tzu once said "if you want peace, prepare for war" and thats what america does. nobody invades us, because it would be suicide, look what happened on 9/11, those guys did not survive.

the guy also said:
his "service" was not necessary
no kidding, thats what makes the american military what it is. its because nobody is forced into it. people do it out of their own free will. whether its because the want to blow something up, they need to get their act together, they need to pay for college, or hey, here's a thought, maybe they just want the self pride of having defended every liberty that they enjoy every day. we are not like greece, or other countries that require 2 years of service from every male when they graduate high school. our armed forces are built on volunteers. troop morale is no less important that a team's morale before a big game, if you think you were forced into being there, you're not going to perform.

this guy obviously does not know what he was talking about, i bet he never sticks up for himself unless its in print. its easy to hide behind a newspaper. things are much different in the real world.

Pat Tillman, I salute you. May you rest in peace. And to all the other men and women of the armed forces, thank you, and come home safe
 

oh and on a criminal justice related note, i knew i mentioned that in my last post for a reason....the war on iraq was necessary. I have taken terrorism classes, and know a thing or two. the war on terrorism is like the war on drugs, chances of it actually ever being won are extremely slim, but that does not mean we should let it run rampant. did sadam plan 9/11?? probably not. but could he have backed it? certainly! what people do not understand is that it is not necessarily the terrorists themselves that we are going after. terrorist work in small cells. usually no bigger than 4. one cell does not know who is part of other cells. this is why terrorist rings are extremely hard to infiltrate.

so what we can do, is cut off the money supply. terrorist acts do not come free. they take years of planning, these are no spur of the moment cash register heists. someone has to finance someone living and planning a mission.

the tupameros were a terrorist group in uruguay up until the 1990's. they financed themselves through crime. their leader is also the person that the late rapper tupac shakur was named after.

FARC and M19 were colombian terrorist groups funded by drug cartels. this is known as 'narco-terrorism'

the tamil tigers were a religious terror group in sri lanka, financed by criminal activity and assassinations of wealthy sinhalese (the ethnic group they were fighting against).

and of course, everyone knows about the IRA in ireland. many mistakenly think they are fighting for land, their war is about religion. but lets not get into that right now. anyone ever been to an Irish bar? there's a very good chance your money could have been funneled through to the IRA. i sh*t you not. there are collection jars that go around every year in irish bars across america with the name of a legitimate face of the IRA used so you think you are funding something else, but a good portion of that money actually ends up funding the IRA. the name of this "legitimate" face is "NORAID." NORAID has over 90 chapters in the united states alone, and has supported the IRA for over 30 years.

so you see, this was a rash decision to invade iraq. iraq was a primary source of funds for many middle eastern terrorist groups. and believe me, there are many more than you would think. and cutting off the money supply is one of the only known tactics to prevent terrorism. was oil another driving factor? who knows? the war on terrorism is bigger than that. if i have to pay more for gas, so some left wing terrorist doesnt blow up something while i'm here in boston, then so be it.

i know that was off the pat tillman subject, but i just want to let everyone know he did not die for an unjust cause, he died for exactly what he believed in. he joined right after 9/11, and was fighting against the very thing that caused 9/11.
 
Okay, let's stop throwing out the word "liberals" as if we are all lumped under one group. Not all Liberals are against the war and not all conservatives are for it. But this Rene character is a piece of work.

Rene's paper, while eloquently written, (for the most part) is a practice in pure idiocy. But that's just my opinion. He's entitled to his opinion, and while I support that, it is tough to not get emotional and angry when listening to crap like that.

Tillman and ALL of our servicemen are heros, there is NO question about that. If Rene wishes to disagree... great, that's why they are out there... defending his right to do so.

Personally, I think Rene is an idiot.
 
This person was right in the article..It wasn't "necessary" for Tillman to serve. He did it for love and patriotism. It's not "necessary" for us to maintain Puerto Rico as a territory of the United States. It's not "necessary" for us to allow student visas. It's not "necessary" for foreigners to come here and fill our classrooms and take jobs from American citizens. We allow all these things because our country was founded by foreigners in search of freedom and a better life. If you don't like the United States, then pack your bags and get out. It's not "necessary" for you to enjoy our feedoms any more!
 
redrooster said:
This person was right in the article..It wasn't "necessary" for Tillman to serve. He did it for love and patriotism. It's not "necessary" for us to maintain Puerto Rico as a territory of the United States. It's not "necessary" for us to allow student visas. It's not "necessary" for foreigners to come here and fill our classrooms and take jobs from American citizens. We allow all these things because our country was founded by foreigners in search of freedom and a better life. If you don't like the United States, then pack your bags and get out. It's not "necessary" for you to enjoy our feedoms any more!

Well said!
 

only a few words from this Ignorant cuss makes you know that, conception of "patriotism" is well beyond this persons intelect.

this self-critical incapable nation,

Well written, some of you say?? I personally can go look up words and make a "well written" paper. Does that mean it is "well written" No that just means that I understand how to put words together in a sentance to make people understand what I am saying. Does that make what I say "well written" or "smart?" I think not. It means that I can gramatically show you that I am a fool, as Rene did in his writings. Give Puerto Rico to the Cubans for a year or 2 I bet this person will change their damn mind.
I think of this person as a draft dodging little pansy that doesn't deserve anything that the USA provides their piddly little "country" of Puerto Rico. I file him in right along all the little crybaby college kids that you see on TV just after the 9-11 bombings boo-hooing their wuss little eyes out saying, "I didn't want to go to war." So, they decide to badmouth the people that do it willingly, so they sleep better, knowing that if they hear planes over their Puerto Rico villa, they are sure not to hear the wistle of carpet-bombs falling to destroy anything they have, without prejudice.

There isn't a person that posts here that goes to sleep worried about the choppers or planes flying over their houses. But then you get folks like Rene that like to complain about the noise created by the men and women that are training to make DAMN SURE they are the only war planes flying over your home.

Now let's move to the little radical freaks that think they are going to meet their God just because they strapped a bomb to their stomach and pressed a button. I would enjoy being there to watch their souly carcases as it is skinned and have their flesh burned away by the flames of hell.

99 Virgins?? I hope it is 99 Virginians.
 
Back
Top