I'm moving to Australia!!!!! You have to read this:

[calpher]

You all need to read Bill O'Reilly's Culture Warrior. It's not so much the radical Islamic Extremests you need to be afraid of, but the secular-progressive (communist) media here in the US. Does the media report on how the US has built homes, schools and hospitals in Iraq and Afganistan? Once we stop fighting for freedom, we lose it! Sorry, hate to sound like a war monger, but I'd rather fight on their soil instead of ours! Yes, we've lost almost 3000 hero's in the war, but it's better than 30000 innocent civilians here. And has most of you forgotten Vietman? How many soldiers were lost there? I'm not saying that it is right, but if we don't take the fight to them....they will bring it to us!

 

[hillbillyman06]

:agree:

 

[Gone&DoneIt]

Home of the Free, BECAUSE of the Brave...

 

[Gone&DoneIt]

What kills me,... and what I rejoiced about in those statements was that a political body finally stood up for it's beleifs ideals and rights, despite the potential dimished "world view". You are absolutely right,... Chrisitan radicals are scary,... not two ways about it. HOWEVER, we do not have state organized indoctrination which coaches insecure, poor, under educated people into dying for our cause. Those pulling the strings are nothing more than OPPORTUNISTS. They are not devouted freedom fighters,... they are not martyrs,... they are opportunists in every sense of the word. Talk about Nazi Germany?!?!?! Hitler came to power by inacting three basic phases of the "Final Solution" garner the support of the under educated youth (your labor force i.e. SS), Unite the people under one agenda (blaiming the socio-economic issues plaguing Germany at the time on the Jews), and keep the masses ignorant of the logistics of your solution (keep the good people from seeing the carnage).

Lets see,... how does that compare,... the Radicals prey on the youth of the Middle East, they blame all the injustices and pain in the world on reciprocity from God for the infidel's egregous sins, and they keep the media from broadcasting any information about events, beleifs, or activities, not in line with the mass brain-washing of it's labor base.

Yes, you have radicals in every religeon in the world,... however,... at no time, have any other country, or group of people had to fear unannounced attacks on it's civilians by Christian Americans. They have never had to worry about American Christians unleashing nerve agents or bio-weapons on it's citizens. They've never had to worry about American Christians targeting them BASED ON THEIR FAITH. That is the difference. Agree or not (and 70% of Americans do not at this point) about our presence in Iraq and the middle east, we are AT WAR. They know who the enemy is, we announced our intentions openly, and are targeting those of a specific politcal persuasion. The Muslim world needs not fear a US Sponsored attach on the UAE because there are Muslims there. We are at war with those who have openly announced war on our citizens, not ALL muslims. The Radical Muslims are targeting anyone who professes faith in a Christian God.

I say right on to Australia. They stood for their values, despite the potential ganging up by the Politically Correct masses. What I wouldn't give to hear someone stand up and say, If you don't like our Pledge featuring the line "Under God" then leave, if you don't like that we have scultpures of the Bible on our courthouses, then there's the door,... you have a problem with a CHRISTMAS TREE IN TIMES SQUARE,... then go...

We are a nation founded under very specific principles, if you cannot come here and assimilate into our culture, and tolerate-not participate or embrace- but tolerate without *****ing and whining, our faith and the dogma that is therein associated then get the hell out. We will gladly tolerate you and yours,... we will welcome you, and offer you a better life,... we will not persecute, nor harm you or your opportunities to thrive,... but you must respect that you are not in your country of origin any longer.

I have been all over the world. NO WHERE ELSE do the indigenous people cow-tow and tiptoe around outsiders the way we do. Try to find a English speaking person on the street in Tokyo, or Paris, or Germany, or Russia, or Kuwait,... I beg you,... find somewhere in Saudi Arabia where you can burn a Saudi flag and not be killed, or in the middle of a crowded town square assemble a group of people and begin a Catholic Mass,... or openly comdem Muslims for their faith,... pick any Muslim state and try it. Kiss your family goodbye first though. You talk about Hitler-esque societies... come on.

One other thing, I am tired of having my rights dictated to me by people who don't understand the importance of the rights they are denying, culture the rights are indigenous to, and the history, bloodshed and sacrifice that has gone into securing those rights.

 

[90Xjay]

i think maybe you meant to post these in the other thread

 

[TwistedCU]

And what about the peaceful people of Iraq (yes, they are there) who embrace freedom, but are having their homes, shops, and families bombed by American missiles? Would we not seem to be the terrorists to them? We stopped trying to stop terrorism over there a long, long time ago. Now we are simply forcing our societal morals and expectations on the people of Iraq. And we are losing far too many young Americans in the process.

How many?

As of 10:00 this morning, 2,933 dead. And I guarantee you that tomorrow's count will be higher yet. Another 9,972 wounded so severely they could not be returned to duty. And I think we all have a pretty good idea of how debilitating a wound has to be to not be returned to duty. A report on CNN a few weeks ago put the number of injured who are returned home in a "vegetative state" at 35-40%!!! The number who have lost limbs and/or the use of their limbs is estimated at 25-30%!!! How many more will we lose before Dubya pulls his head out of his arse and admits we are not winning?

We have been constantly bombarding the Iraqi people since March of 2003 over nothing more than a pack of lies. But, take another stance to say we were there to oust Saddam. Ok, we've accomplished that but the bombs are still falling. So, to the Iraqi people, why is it we aren't supposed to look like radical Christian terrorists?:???:

You and I have a totally different view of the events over there.

First of all, yes, Saddam has been ousted and his government has fallen. When this happened we watched the peopl of Iraq form a new government and have an election for the first time. The people over there chhered the victory and were very enthusiastic about the election, having dyed their thumbs despite threats on their lives for participating. I don't have time to look up the numbers, but the election was huge.

We are fighting insurgents, which are backed mainly by the same familiar Sunni terrorists. We are not simply bombing Iraqi homes and citizens.

These are some of who we are fighting, all of which are Islamic extremests who are either terrorist organizations or linked to them, and their main form of attacks are terrorism:
Ba'athists
Muqtada al-Sadr
Shiite militia
Sunni Islamists
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

Like I stated earlier, one of the main reasons this battle is so difficult for the US and Iraqi soldiers is the insurgents regularly attack and then take cover behind civilians.

If we were just out to conquer then we would go in after them without regard for Iraqi casualties.

 

[Sparky-Watts]

HOWEVER, we do not have state organized indoctrination which coaches insecure, poor, under educated people into dying for our cause.

Have you not heard of the Armed Services of the United States of America and it's recruiting tactics? Oh, sorry, that's not state organized is it? It's federally organized.

I'm not disagreeing with anything in your post, and I understand what you were alluding to in the above quote. However, the way it is written sounds exactly like our Armed Services recruiting. Targeting the undereducated minorities from the poorest of slums, enticing them with an education and steady pay to go overseas and be blown to bits by insurgents.......I just felt I had to point out the similarities.

 

[Sparky-Watts]

You and I have a totally different view of the events over there.

That's what I get for keeping an open mind and looking at both sides of the issues.

I'm fully aware of who we are fighting, what their tactics are, and why it is so difficult for our brave sons and daughters. As to why we are still there is beyond me. Trying to force them into a civil war? (Which, by the way, isn't that far off) Despite our best efforts and all of our "smart bomb" technology, the bottom line is that we are destroying homes and businesses of Iraqi citizens who may or may not be involved with the insurgent horde, and we are killing Iraqi citizens. I did not say we are just bombing anything and everything willy-nilly, but there is a high degree of collateral damage associated with multiple detonations of 1,000 lb bombs. One thing I will agree with you on is that if we wanted complete success, we could have it in pretty short order by not being so careful with our armaments.

I never called our soldiers terrorists, either. I said to many of the Iraqi people, they appear to be the terrorists. And I believe the definition you used to describe terrorists is what our culture sees as terrorists. You must view things through the eyes of a whole different culture to understand why they see their soldiers as saviors and ours as terrorists.

Many people are saying that we are there to stop terrorism, but we are not stopping it. Have there been any more terrorist attacks by Al Queda on US soil since we started the war? No, not by most people's standards. However, Bin Laden's quest in the 9/11 attacks was to create turmoil among the people of the US, put us into an economic tailspin, and to shake up our government. He is still succeeding in his goal. The more we fight the insurgents in Iraq, the more he succeeds.

 

[Dorivin]

I agree with sparky on that note.
You can fight the terrorist all you like, drop bombs on them all you like, and posion them all you want but in the end, you can't beat them. Terrorist have been around since before the middle ages. Its a tactic that is just abit more out there but just as effective as dropping a nuke. Its an illusion to say we are winning the fight, or to look at it from just the asspect of the american eye. The groups who are at war with us are winning, they are waiting for the right moment to attack once more.
Think of it this way and it is a very tactical move on their part and I do give them credit for the way they think.
You do one or two attacks on a large scale to shake the foundations of a mighty empire. Then they attack, you split up and hide. Then when there has been a so many number of years that war has been going on you return. You attack the that same empire whose weakness has just opened itself up, small numbers and no support from majority of the masses. You deal another blow, and if the blow is in the right joint then the foundation crumbles.

They will attack again, the american military is so stretched thin and drained that not that many people are willing to up and join the fight any more. They see the numbers of men and women coming back injured or dead. Its a heavy blow and its starting to take affect on the country. I'm not saying we are this horrible country who just want to bully everyone, but we need to step back and take another route. You can't beat an unseen enemy. One thing america did do wrong was that it took out sadam. Yes he was an evil person but so is Castro, and hes still in power. We just keep a short leash on him and if we took him out of power then that country would have fallen years ago.

 

[TwistedCU]

you can't beat them.

While I agree that terrorism itself will always be a possibility, defeating "Jihad" is not impossible by any means.

That's what I get for keeping an open mind and looking at both sides of the issues.

Would you not agree that our views on just about every aspect of the events in Iraq are completely different?

I don't understand "That's what I get"...

I'm fully aware of who we are fighting, what their tactics are, and why it is so difficult for our brave sons and daughters.

As to why we are still there is beyond me.

We are there to fight the terror networks, yes. You do realize that these people want us all dead? You do realize that Iran (among other countries) supports and funds and helps supply these terrorists? Iran is working on a nuclear program...

Want us dead... nukes...

We are there because we have to be there.

What do you suggest we do, leave? Ignore these threats and the writing on the wall (or quran if you will)?

Then what? We ignored these threats in the 1990's and look what happened.


We are also still there to protect the Iraqis as they form their own country. There are those in the area that would have loved to been the ones to bring down Hussein's army and rule Iraq, and if we left the Iraqis alone right now they would be very venerable.

 

[mingez]

I have been all over the world. NO WHERE ELSE do the indigenous people cow-tow and tiptoe around outsiders the way we do. Try to find a English speaking person on the street in Tokyo, or Paris, or Germany, or Russia, or Kuwait,... I beg you

That proves nothing, and again, deceiving in its principle.

I guarantee you, there are more people in Tokyo and Germany that speak English then Americans who speak Japanese and German. There are English signs in Japan from crying out loud. Ride the train, you can get around Gai-jin.

 

[mingez]

Yes, but the guy sitting on that button could be a muslim, a jew, a christian, an athiest, a contortionist, or whatever. He is an American and he is not a terrorist. The men and women over there are fighting terrorists. They are fighting to avoid another 9/11 and fighting the Extrmeists that want to kill more of their innocent countrymen and women and children. They are doing it so you can call them terrorists. They are doing it so you won't have to fight them here.

So,

If you were in the middle east and followed Islam in the manner which those that orchestrated the 9/11 attacks or the attack on the US Cole, or the Subway bombings in Europe then yeah you'd have a damn good reason to fear that guy - or gal. If you were a peaceful person who embraced freedom you would not.

Completely misunderstanding my post. I never called our military terrorists. I said that to the people they are attacking they are terrorists. One man's hero is another man's enemy.

 

[mingez]

I say right on to Australia. They stood for their values, despite the potential ganging up by the Politically Correct masses. What I wouldn't give to hear someone stand up and say, If you don't like our Pledge featuring the line "Under God" then leave, if you don't like that we have scultpures of the Bible on our courthouses, then there's the door,... you have a problem with a CHRISTMAS TREE IN TIMES SQUARE,... then go...

And to that I say, this is a free country (evidentally, to many it's only a free country with certain caveats, and only free for those that share the same beliefs and ideals) and I have the right to believe in any ideology I choose.

I choose to change my country for the better, and fight the ignorance of that statement. I choose to stay and fight. And I dare you or anyone else, try and kick me out.... you'll lose that fight as well.

We are a nation founded under very specific principles, if you cannot come here and assimilate into our culture, and tolerate-not participate or embrace- but tolerate without *****ing and whining, our faith and the dogma that is therein associated then get the hell out. We will gladly tolerate you and yours,... we will welcome you, and offer you a better life,... we will not persecute, nor harm you or your opportunities to thrive,... but you must respect that you are not in your country of origin any longer.

Assimilate? Dogma? Who's faith? That's YOUR faith, not mine. Do you really support freedom? Doesn't sound like it...atleast you certainly don't support my freedom. Our country is great BECAUSE of our diversity, not inspite of it.

Because we were founded under certain principles (which is debatable) doesn't mean you should stick to traditions for tradition's sake. Humans grow, learn and evolve. This is why we have amendments.

Not all ideals contemporary with the founding of our country were good ones. Shall we take back a Woman's right to vote? Let's revoke the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments and bring back slavery. We grew out of those ignorant modes of thinking, and we'll continue to change in the future...hopefully for the better, although I question that.

 

[mingez]

One other thing, I am tired of having my rights dictated to me by people who don't understand the importance of the rights they are denying, culture the rights are indigenous to, and the history, bloodshed and sacrifice that has gone into securing those rights.

You mean like they way you are dictating to me right now, by telling me that I must "Assimilate, or get the hell out?" Think about the hypocrisy of those statements.

 

[mingez]

You all need to read Bill O'Reilly's Culture Warrior. It's not so much the radical Islamic Extremests you need to be afraid of, but the secular-progressive (communist) media here in the US. Does the media report on how the US has built homes, schools and hospitals in Iraq and Afganistan? Once we stop fighting for freedom, we lose it! Sorry, hate to sound like a war monger, but I'd rather fight on their soil instead of ours! Yes, we've lost almost 3000 hero's in the war, but it's better than 30000 innocent civilians here. And has most of you forgotten Vietman? How many soldiers were lost there? I'm not saying that it is right, but if we don't take the fight to them....they will bring it to us!

Oh god, here we go again about the "liberal media." Hell, they aren't even liberal anymore, they've achieved communist status. :roll:

 

[TwistedCU]

just too much intolerance in the world..........in BOTH hemispheres.

I meant to ask earlier...

Should we be tolerant of a group who want to kill us, who have attacked us and already killed thousands? Should we be tolerant of a group who straps bombs their own children and send them to their death with the hopes of killing some of us? Should we be tolerant of a group that kidnaps our own and films gruesome beheadings of their captive with the intent to terrorize us?

SHould we be attempting diplomacy with these people?

Negotiating?

Maybe we should get together with them and tell them we are sorry and tell them we love them. Then we could all sit around the globe singing kum by yah.

Intolerance? Yeah you could call it that. Just remember, I am not intolerant of people from muslim countries, I am intolerant, and damn angry with the murderous and cowardly muslims/Islamics that are on this so-called "Jihad" - and with damn good reason.

Give me one good reason why anyone in the US should be tolerant of that?

 

[Sparky-Watts]

We are there to fight the terror networks, yes. You do realize that these people want us all dead? You do realize that Iran (among other countries) supports and funds and helps supply these terrorists? Iran is working on a nuclear program...

Our Prez vowed to take the fight to any country that harbored or aided these terrorists in any way......yet we are not dropping bombs on Iran, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc., etc. Why not? If we have such a good reason to be in Iraq, then by the same reason, we need to be in those other countries fighting terror, also.

We are there because we have to be there.

We never "had to be there" in the first place. We chose to be there. Yes, it was a response to an attack on American soil, but we've changed our reason for being there several times now. How many more reasons are we going to give so that we can keep killing our sons and daughters, spending our national debt higher, and lining the pockets of the war contractors who are under Bush's desk in the oval orifice on a daily basis?

What do you suggest we do, leave? Ignore these threats and the writing on the wall (or quran if you will)?

Those threats have been in the quran for thousands of years, why did we not attack them in 1776? Ok, stupid statement on my part about 1776, but still, we have no more reason to be there now than we did when we first attacked.

We are also still there to protect the Iraqis as they form their own country.

Always one of my favorites: We must protect you from yourselves!!:roll:

 

[Gone&DoneIt]

Our Prez vowed to take the fight to any country that harbored or aided these terrorists in any way......yet we are not dropping bombs on Iran, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc., etc. Why not? If we have such a good reason to be in Iraq, then by the same reason, we need to be in those other countries fighting terror, also.



We never "had to be there" in the first place. We chose to be there. Yes, it was a response to an attack on American soil, but we've changed our reason for being there several times now. How many more reasons are we going to give so that we can keep killing our sons and daughters, spending our national debt higher, and lining the pockets of the war contractors who are under Bush's desk in the oval orifice on a daily basis?

Those threats have been in the quran for thousands of years, why did we not attack them in 1776? Ok, stupid statement on my part about 1776, but still, we have no more reason to be there now than we did when we first attacked.



Always one of my favorites: We must protect you from yourselves!!:roll:

I believe we chose Iraq as the best possible target to make an example of, for several different reasons:

In general, Iraq lacked the support of the other Muslim nations that Saudi, or Iran, or Syria mantains,... in other words,... we didn't run quite such a high risk of an all out war with the Middle East by choosing this as our target.

We had unfinished business with Iraq, Saddam was a bruise on the face of America, he regularly thumbed his nose at our policies and the UN imposed sanctions. I do beleive there was intelligence at some point about MWD's, which also factored into this area. The regime was one of the more tyrranical dictatorships currently operating, which meant it should have been easier to garner world support, and sympathy. The govnerning body had a history of atrocities toward it's own and neighboring peoples. In addition its own people are heavily divided: sectarian violence, religeous derision, and an inability historically to unite meant that not only did you not risk a war with the Middle East at large, but that in all liklihood, even those groups within Iraq that opposed US involvement would be too divided to unite and respond in a unified fashion.

Oil. Both the presence of it, and the logistics of shipping it. The region, geographically, is ideally situated to facilitate transportation and potential refining of oil to the US. The upside, a potential recovery of costs associated with the war and the ability to have a well positioned ally in the middle east with the ability to influence other like-minded countries. When you look at the other countries in the Middle East,... really,... none other made as much sense as Iraq.

We had to respond and show the might of our military, and the resolve of our people,... they just happened to be the perfect canvas to paint that picture.

 

[Green97TJ]

Oh god, here we go again about the "liberal media." Hell, they aren't even liberal anymore, they've achieved communist status.

Well there's one thing everyone in this thread should be able to agree on

 

[90Xjay]

Well there's one thing everyone in this thread should be able to agree on